Collateral damage is not murder. I feel like a parrot having to refute all these same inaccurate characterizations over and over again. Calling it murder doesn’t make it so.
Good thing you’re not in charge of any defense forces. If your opponents strapped their own children to tanks I suppose you’d just let them roll in and take over.
It’s not a genocide because of collateral damage. It’s a genocide because they used wholly inappropriate 2000 lbs bombs on civilian targets, used starvation as a tactic, refused to let meaningful amounts of humanitarian aid in, bombed schools and hospitals, and used genocidal language that demonstrates intent.
Go ahead and defend Itamar Ben-Gvir if you want but he’s a Kahanist. Go ahead and defend Netanyahu but he’s the one who is a disgrace to Judaism and arguably the worst leader of a major power in my lifetime. War crimes have happened. Mass graves exist and torture prisons exist. Genocide requires intent and I’d argue there’s been dozens of statements by members of Israel’s cabinet that constitute a very strong case.
I am neither defending Ben-Gvir nor Netanyahu, they are both assholes and should be removed from power. What I’m defending is Israel’s right to self-defense. (I’m not your strawman, stick to things I actually wrote, please.)
The alternative to using bombs is sending in troops without air support to a well-prepared guerilla den, suggesting Israel should sacrifice its own to protect civilians of a hostile nation, 72% of whom support the genocidal regime who attacked them.
The pro-pali crowd certainly likes to make this sound like they are starving out Gaza in a medieval siege but that isn’t reality.
Said schools and hospitals were used as military assets by Hamas, making them into legal targets.
I read the statements SA submitted to the IJC, the most egregious quotes were from people who are not involved with running the IDF and waging this war (like Judeofascist Ben-Gvir and Amichai Eliyahu) and I do not believe they represent Israel as a whole, and as such they do not meet the standards for genocide. In fact Amichai got reprimanded for his statements. Many of the other quotes were taken out of context. (I did a deep dive on every quote cited a while back, which I would be happy to post here if you’re interested.)
If torture prisons exist that’s a good reason to prosecute Ben-Gvir of war crimes if such orders came from on high, and also any guards who break the law without CO approval. If war crimes have happened I approve of prosecuting everyone responsible. However, I see a lot of people accusing Israel of war crimes inappropriately.
Israel crossed the line from self defense into genocide when they started ruthlessly executing innocent civilians and aid workers. You cannot justify their bullshit.
Do you want to discuss the over 500 incitements of genocide? When it comes to intent, Israel’s intent has been documented more than most
Since the commencement of our investigative efforts on October 7th, 2023, Law for Palestine has meticulously amassed a compelling body of evidence exposing the proliferation of incitement to violence and genocidal intent perpetrated by Israeli officials and public figures, against Palestinians. Our documentation encompasses over 500 incitements of violence and genocidal incitement, appearing in the forms of social media posts, television interviews, and official statements from Israeli politicians, army personnel, journalists, and other influential personalities.
Hi and apologies for the late reply - /c/world@lemmy.world moderator @jordanlund@lemmy.world removed my comment and gave me a temporary ban for the comment you replied to citing that it was “Pro-Israel propaganda”.
First off, thank you for posting this link - and no, I’m not interested in discussing them. My point was that users should be held to a higher standard when posting as moderators than the rest of us.
I will however give a comment on the contents of the cited webpage. I read through the statements from decision makers (These seemed most relevant), and they did (in my personal view) not amount to intent. However, as law4palestine highlights:
The ultimate adjudication of this matter is contingent upon the determination of a competent court.
Personally, I want to see a full investigation by the ICJ conducted, and if they do end up with an indictment, those responsible brought to justice.
I don’t understand how someone can read 22 incitements to genocide by the Minister of Defense, Prime Minister, and President of Israel on top of the hundreds of other incitements by public officials, Knesset members, military personnel, and law enforcement; only to conclude that it does not amount to intent. That doesn’t make sense to me. That’s on top of the ongoing military operations that fit the description of genocide and go against the ICJs orders to prevent a plausible genocide.
Intent is a critical part of the ICJ case, the court case would not be ongoing if the evidence was not plentiful and credible. The people of Gaza cannot wait years for a verdict.
I agree with your last paragraph, for the war crimes Hamas has committed too, after an end to the apartheid.
At the very least, we can agree that this is not a normal war and both Hamas and Israeli actions require an investigation. Hamas, being a terrorist group and not a state actor, should be treated as a terrorist group. They don’t represent Palestine at the UN and no one in their right mind recognizes them as anything other than a stain upon the world.
Israel (and Fatah) have a different level of responsibility. I understand that October 7th was despicable. I hope Hamas disappears. But Israel, if it wants to be in the community of nations, has to conduct war in accordance with the laws of war. And I don’t think they have.
I would obviously say the same about the Rohingya genocide and the unfolding one in Darfur. Never again means never again. I’ve been to the genocide museum in DC and concentration camps in Europe but also the Rwandan genocide memorial and others. I think what we’re seeing is a genocide. Nothing is clear in the fog of war so it won’t be clear today or tomorrow but the UN is not wrong for investigating.
If your opponents strapped their own children to tanks I suppose you’d just let them roll in and take over.
You know, I was going to answer the rest substantively, but this is the most ludicrous thing I’ve heard in quite some time. You are not here in good faith.
Yes. You have already made it clear that you think the murder of thousands of children is justified for the sake of Israel’s self-defense.
And I have made it clear that I think that if you have to kill thousands of children in the name of self-defense, you have nothing worth defending.
Suggesting that there is anything reason to justify killing thousands of children is pretty disturbing.
I would sacrifice my own life to save one child.
Collateral damage is not murder. I feel like a parrot having to refute all these same inaccurate characterizations over and over again. Calling it murder doesn’t make it so.
Good thing you’re not in charge of any defense forces. If your opponents strapped their own children to tanks I suppose you’d just let them roll in and take over.
It’s not a genocide because of collateral damage. It’s a genocide because they used wholly inappropriate 2000 lbs bombs on civilian targets, used starvation as a tactic, refused to let meaningful amounts of humanitarian aid in, bombed schools and hospitals, and used genocidal language that demonstrates intent.
Go ahead and defend Itamar Ben-Gvir if you want but he’s a Kahanist. Go ahead and defend Netanyahu but he’s the one who is a disgrace to Judaism and arguably the worst leader of a major power in my lifetime. War crimes have happened. Mass graves exist and torture prisons exist. Genocide requires intent and I’d argue there’s been dozens of statements by members of Israel’s cabinet that constitute a very strong case.
Israel crossed the line from self defense into genocide when they started ruthlessly executing innocent civilians and aid workers. You cannot justify their bullshit.
Propaganda/Genocide denial/justification removed.
Removed by mod
Do you want to discuss the over 500 incitements of genocide? When it comes to intent, Israel’s intent has been documented more than most
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Hi and apologies for the late reply - /c/world@lemmy.world moderator @jordanlund@lemmy.world removed my comment and gave me a temporary ban for the comment you replied to citing that it was “Pro-Israel propaganda”.
First off, thank you for posting this link - and no, I’m not interested in discussing them. My point was that users should be held to a higher standard when posting as moderators than the rest of us.
I will however give a comment on the contents of the cited webpage. I read through the statements from decision makers (These seemed most relevant), and they did (in my personal view) not amount to intent. However, as law4palestine highlights:
Personally, I want to see a full investigation by the ICJ conducted, and if they do end up with an indictment, those responsible brought to justice.
I don’t understand how someone can read 22 incitements to genocide by the Minister of Defense, Prime Minister, and President of Israel on top of the hundreds of other incitements by public officials, Knesset members, military personnel, and law enforcement; only to conclude that it does not amount to intent. That doesn’t make sense to me. That’s on top of the ongoing military operations that fit the description of genocide and go against the ICJs orders to prevent a plausible genocide.
Intent is a critical part of the ICJ case, the court case would not be ongoing if the evidence was not plentiful and credible. The people of Gaza cannot wait years for a verdict.
I agree with your last paragraph, for the war crimes Hamas has committed too, after an end to the apartheid.
You simply are not paying attention or sea lioning if you’re demanding sources.
But for anyone else who may have missed it:
Israel illegally attacked and killed aid workers in Southern Lebanon:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/07/israel-us-arms-used-strike-killed-lebanon-aid-workers
Then followed it up by illegally and attacking World Central Kitchen workers in Gaza.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/middleeast/jose-andres-wck-israel-strike-criticism-intl/index.html
Your pro-Israel propaganda WILL NOT be tolerated here.
I’m informed and simply disagree with you. Is that not allowed? Is disagreement always “propaganda?” Do you prefer an echo chamber?
Israel is not infallible. This is a war, sometimes they get bad Intel, sometimes collateral damage happens, sometimes there’s fog of war…
In both of those attacks Israel was targeting militants and appears to have hit civilians.
At the very least, we can agree that this is not a normal war and both Hamas and Israeli actions require an investigation. Hamas, being a terrorist group and not a state actor, should be treated as a terrorist group. They don’t represent Palestine at the UN and no one in their right mind recognizes them as anything other than a stain upon the world.
Israel (and Fatah) have a different level of responsibility. I understand that October 7th was despicable. I hope Hamas disappears. But Israel, if it wants to be in the community of nations, has to conduct war in accordance with the laws of war. And I don’t think they have.
I would obviously say the same about the Rohingya genocide and the unfolding one in Darfur. Never again means never again. I’ve been to the genocide museum in DC and concentration camps in Europe but also the Rwandan genocide memorial and others. I think what we’re seeing is a genocide. Nothing is clear in the fog of war so it won’t be clear today or tomorrow but the UN is not wrong for investigating.
You know, I was going to answer the rest substantively, but this is the most ludicrous thing I’ve heard in quite some time. You are not here in good faith.
I used a somewhat satirical metaphor you don’t like, so now I’m not here in good faith? Interesting reasoning.
“Somewhat satirical” does not describe the ludicrous thing you said. So yes, you’re not here in good faith.