No matter what you say, you won’t convince us to accept genocide when it’s happening to Palestinians or anyone else.

Oh, OK, thanks, that was genuinely helpful. If I understood correctly, you think I’m trying to convince you that “Israel = good”, so you mentally add “and that’s why Israel is in the right” after what I said, and are replying to that instead of what I actually said. I’m absolutely not trying to convince anyone Israel is in the right here, or that they aren’t committing genocide. Not saying I agree or disagree with you on the subject, just saying that’s not what I’m talking about. This started out as me pointing out that the reason people are saying Hamas are using civilians as human shields is because that’s what’s they’re doing. Now I’m trying to understand why people focus so much on Gaza and are giving Hamas a free pass for what’s going on there.

I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts

It wasn’t a comparison. I took the criteria you gave (number of casualties) and applied it to other situations. Which seemed to be productive because now you’ve given me new criteria. The only one that’s unique is western support. I get that - as (probably?) a citizen of a western country, you don’t want your tax money financing genocide. But that’s more a criticism against your government, and, more importantly to my interest in the conversation, it doesn’t explain the visceral hate people seem to have towards Israel in particular.

Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that

That’s what I’m asking - why do you “just want Gaza to not top that” and don’t seem to care that much about what’s going on Sudan? (I’m talking about the discourse among the, and I’m hoping I’m using the correct term, progressive left).

The problem is there can’t be an accurate count because Israel won’t let independent investigators in

According to your own source, there can’t be an accurate account because “Collecting data is becoming increasingly difficult for the Gaza Health Ministry due to the destruction of much of the infrastructure.”

Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed.

And those people would be wrong. That doesn’t contradict anything I said.

Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.

Anyway, you’re saying it’s a numbers game? Let’s say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying “Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression”?

If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas

Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of “antisemitism” - I’m pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).

My gut reaction is to say - I don’t know, if murder isn’t okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?

When people assign blame only on one side, they’re encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the “Free Palestine!!!” and “Antisemitism!!!” camps.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn’t a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is “pro-Israeli”?

It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it’s a legitimate interpretation of reality.

It’s not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.

Your post right there? That’s one of the reasons Harris lost.

Of course people (not just Americans) are selfish. Doesn’t matter if it’s good or not, that’s just the factual truth. The Republicans knew how to work with that, by selling the voters a solution to the things that actually interested them. That’s also what helped Obama (“Hope”, though a bit vague) and Bill Clinton (“It’s the economy, stupid”) get elected (Yes, it also didn’t hurt that they were rock stars). Now the Democrats are perceived not only as a party that’s not willing to work on issues that concern them, but as actually criticizing them for wanting what they want.

Dude, you brought up the comparison between Hamas and Israel and you brought up the IDF investigation. Now you’re acting condescending while trying to straw man the things I said (hint: I never said the IDF is just, nor is it relevant to my argument).

Don’t really see a point continuing the discussion any further, but thanks for answering some of my questions. I do have one more question though - would you say your opinions are representative of the “Pro-Palestinian” crowd in your country?

Counteroffer - try to read what I said with the understanding there might be a difference between what you think “Zionism” is and what Zionism actually is. Not all Zionists would agree with what I said, but then again that’s also one of the thing you probably don’t understand.

First of all, you didn’t address the main point I was making, or answered my question (just wanted to point that out).

The way that Hamas treats Palestinians is partially the responsibility of Netanyahu and the Likud given that they provided Hamas with material support to take power in the first place.

Not really. Netanyahu didn’t provide material support for Hamas, rather allowed Qatar to materially support them (Yet somehow I don’t see anyone condemning Qatar…). Also, this began about a decade after Hamas took over Gaza. And, really, it’s an extremely weak argument even if what you said were true. Saying Israel is partially responsible for the way Hamas treated the people in Gaza doesn’t mean it treated Palestinians worse than Hamas.

Also, the fact that Israelis stormed an IDF base in protest of the punishment of IDF thugs that anally raped innocent Palestinians to death with rifles

That’s not what happened. The IDF detained some soldiers who allegedly anally raped and perhaps killed Palestinian detainees as part of an investigation. After hearing that, some extreme right wingers stormed the base in something raging from protest against the way soldiers were detained to the mere fact they were detained (depending on who you ask). The act was condemned by a huge majority of the Israeli public. Judging Israel by that is like judging the US by the proud boys of the Jan 6th Capitol riots. But let’s go back to your point of Israel treating Palestinians worse than Hamas - could you point out an example of Hamas investigating it’s operatives for mistreating detainees? If not, is it because you think Hamas doesn’t mistreat its detainees?

What “should”? The context of the discussion is the screenshot, and it said "if “Zionism is defeated like the south was defeated in the civil war”. The comparison to the US civil war might be a bit weird, but it’s pretty obvious he means “If Hamas were to win the conflict and treat Israel as it saw fit” (like what happened in the civil war).

Also, it’s a bit weird for me you’re phrasing your scenario as a “Zionist defeat”, as I know many Zionists (myself included) who would view that as a “Zionist win”, at least in the long run (as long as you’re for equal treatment of Hamas and Palestinians).

Secondly, I belive Hamas would treat Israeli the same way Israel treats Palestinians.

That’s a bit funny to me, as I think Hamas treats Palestinians wore than Israel treats Palestinians, but there’s probably no point going into that. Regardless, do you think this would be worse, the same or better than the current situation?

You think Hamas would treat Israelis the same as the allied forces treated Germans? Based on what?

To answer your question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_October_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel#Reported_atrocities (as well as the mass murder of civilians that for some reason aren’t mentioned in the section)

To address your second point “not voting for Harris is a vote for Trump”; why isn’t the opposite true? “Not voting for Trump is a vote for Harris”, follows the same logic, so refusing to vote or voting independent should be net neutral, no?

You’re missing some context - “not voting [instead of] for Harris is a vote for Trump”. If the dilemma is between not voting and voting Harris, choosing not to vote subtracts a vote from Harris.

Of course Harris got a boost in donations after she became the candidate - she appealed the the people who thought Biden was too conservative. That doesn’t mean conservative democrats are an insignificant demographic, they simply already donated earlier. The move towards the center is meant to not drive them away into not voting [instead of voting for Harris]. Obviously there will be some progressives and some conservatives who will decide to not vote [instead of voting for Harris], the goal is to move to the point where these margins from both sides will be minimal.

That’s like saying German citizens during WW2 should be killed, raped and tortured. Black and white is usually the wrong way to go about thinking.

Without commenting on whether I agree with the screenshot, I’d like to ask a question - what do you (as in, the people who would like to see “Zionism” defeated) think will happen if “Zionism” will be defeated?

Volunteering?

There’s a good chance got them because dunkin donated them or because the cafe didn’t want to give cash for fear it could be construed as pay.

The point of gift cards is that they’re: a. Not money (when using money might have some sort of disadvantage for either side). b. Have restrictions that the person who gave it to you might want to impose. c. Are usually cheaper than paying money directly to the vendor.

And frankly, no one forced you to try and use them. They were given as a gesture of appreciation, and you could have given them to someone who would have been happy to have them, or just politely refuse to accept them. Also, not checking the expiration date is on you.

Yes, young people usually engage more in “forbidden” activities than older people.

Yes, Fatah is a relatively secular organization. And is absolutely a better start than Hamas.

You should to realign your metrics for the middle east if you think If “hooking up with Putin” is the worst thing someone can do there.

Are you thinking “young people” = “less religious”?

That’s mainly the case for Christians/the west, not Muslims in Muslim countries.

Which one, the west bank or Gaza?

Or do you think each one will get an autonomy in almost every aspect, but will still be part of the same state?

Depends on the starting conditions.

There are two main “forces” at play here:

Hamas, which is an fundamentalist, religious and military organization backed by Iran. If they were to gain power in a Palestinian state, it would look something like Hezbollah controlled areas in Lebanon. So… not good.

Fatah, on the other hand, is a (relatively) secular organization that’s in good relations with western countries. If they were to gain power, Palestine would be more open to western influence, and will probably treat women, secular people and minorities better. This version of Palestine will probably be the most pro-western Arab state, so it might be more influenced by western values more than other Arab states. Of course, in the mid- or long run it’s possible an extremist power will rise regardless of western backing (ex. Iran).

Assuming a you’re talking about the near future, which organization will have control largely depends on if Hamas would exist. If so, they’ll probably get the credit for a recognized state due to their “resistance”. Then again, it’s very possible one of the conditions for a universally recognized state will be the elimination of Hamas as a political (and obviously military) force.

I’m kinda ignoring the “including Israel” part of your question, as Israel would absolutely not accept any version of Palestine with Hamas.

And those Hezbollah operatives can lose their pagers

And you can lose your car keys. But if someone asked you where they were, you wouldn’t say “Oh, they’re in a random place”.

or they themselves can move randomly through populated areas with the hidden bomb strapped to their hip

The explosive charge was small enough to seriously harm only those who are in direct contact with it. There’s a video of one charge going off in the middle of grocery shopping (speaking of your next point) with a person standing maybe 20 cm next to the explosion. That person was able to run away without apparent harm.

They never go to buy groceries, or stop at a hospital or school, or have their devices stolen or lost in some random location

There’s no method of warfare that would never harm civilians.

a manner that has absolutely no mechanism by which to control where they actually are and who else is in proximity to them when detonated.

The pagers being bought by Hezbollah is the mechanism. Did you mean a real-time mechanism? Is this what it boils down to? Edit: Sorry, I misread what you said. Changing my reply to: As you can see from the video, where they are and who is next to them isn’t really a factor. I would agree that if they are in very close proximity to another person (hugging them of maybe riding in a crowded public transport), the explosion will probably harm the other person. Once again, relative to other methods aimed against targets operating among civilian population, this seems more selective, not less.