Incredibly telling of yourself that you link pro-imperialist media like NPR and the Guardian as though they have any legitimacy when it comes to accurately portraying socialist leaders. I’ve already seen the western consent manufacturing, this isn’t new to me, and I find it as credible as Saddam’s WMD.

It’s not at all a grand statement to say “US bad, but enemy of US also bad.” All this does is cede legitimacy to the US Empire against its enemies, manufacturing consent during their aggression. It doesn’t matter if you finger wag the US, by legitimizing their claims against their enemies, you legitimize their assault.

This is even further compounded by your lack of explanation of how a democratically elected and popularly supported president is a dictator. This is the same playbook they used against Allende.

It isn’t groundbreaking to say that people can be corrupt to different degrees. What you failed to do is provide any meaningful explanation for why you believe Maduro to be corrupt, authoritarian, a dictator, etc. We gave ample evidence pointing to his popular support, the robust system of democracy in Venezuela, the rising commune movement and participatory economy, etc, while you called us bad-faith.

To me, it looks like you think yourself above having to back up your claims and as outside of the conversation looking in, rather than actually communicating with us. This is compounded by your commenting both here and on the MWoG threads, a known cryptofash gathering spot. Is this behavior of yours “good faith” in your eyes?

You’re making the argument that Venezuela is poor not because of sanctions and embargos, but personal choices by a democratically elected leader that has promoted and carried out poverty alleviation campaigns and pushed for food security through large social programs.

Of course, they have people dedicated to finding evidence and distorting it to present pro-imperial narratives, and fund them well.

The problem with the liberal definition is that it’s meant to erase capitalism from its natural, systemic compulsion towards imperialism, making it more of a policy choice. The Marxist understanding of imperialism is deeper and more accurate. You can think of the liberal definition as overly simplistic, broad, vague, and with no analysis of why countries become empires, while the Marxist understanding is deeper, more complex, more observable, and explains why some countries become empires (and thus gain massive amounts of wealth from their neocolonies), and their neocolonies remain underdeveloped.

You gave no examples of Maduro “being an authoritarian,” and then cited more western NGOs. Of course the empire trying to manufacture consent to coup Venezuela would do that, they did it to Allende too. Repeating “Maduro is a dictator” like a mantra isn’t a substitute for explaining how and why that’s true, and citing western NGOs is just parroting what the empire wants you to.

The USSR, PRC, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. all were massive expansions on democracy and working class control. They were finally free and just for the working classes, and society became more about trying to satisfy everyone’s needs than endless private profits, with public ownership as the principle aspect of their economies.

The USSR, PRC, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. all were massive expansions on democracy and working class control. Capitalists, landlords, fascists, monarchists, etc were (usually) violently oppressed, while the working classes were uplifted and society was democratized. From the point of view of the capitalists, they found themselves living in a violent dictatorship, for the working classes they found themselves finally escaping violent dictatorship.

Crimea and the people of the Donbass region both voted to join Russia. In fact, the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics, the ones being ethnically cleansed by the far-right Banderites in Kiev that have been in power since the 2014 western-backed Euromaidan coup, specifically requested assistance from Russia in 2022. Belarus and Georgia having close economic ties is not the same as imperialism. You also have no evidence of neocolonialism, trade with Russia is closer to south-south trade as it doesn’t have a monopoly on the goods it exports like gas and nuclear power plants, and as such African countries are developing more via trade with Russia and China while being underdeveloped by the west.

China is a socialist country. They have markets, but that doesn’t mean they have a “mix” of capitalism and socialism. Public ownership is the principle aspect of their economy, and the state is under the control of the working classes. There is no “real estate crisis,” housing prices were kept low and no longer able to be used as an investment vehicle. The “ghost cities” are smart urban development, and most are habited after being developed. This kind of thinking ahead is possible because of socialism.

You also have no evidence of “debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty,” or “undermining labor movements.” China regularly forgives loans, doesn’t requore privatization of publicly owned industry or force austerity like the IMF does, and has been doing huge work in developing and building up the global south with more south-south trade.

What’s going on here is it’s absolutely unacceptable for you to admit that the west is the worst, by far, out of that trio. China is genuinely a progressive state with mass popular support internally and internationally, governed by a communist party. Russia is seeing rising support for socialism internally, and is higher up on the list of candidates for new socialist countried because of it. The west is the indisuputed world empire, helmed by the US, and this empire is projecting hard onto other countries as it exports genocide and plunders the world on its way out.

Absolutely. Venezuela is genuinely what self-described demsocs want, the Empire just doesn’t care and will kill you regardless of how procedural and by international law your socialism is.

Bay of Piglets, more like, haha. No one talks about it because it’s unsavory for the imperialist saber rattling going on right now.

Yes, I linked the UN allegations, as well as China’s response and Qiao Collective’s comprehensive resource list. The UN report was the allegations, the rest is the response to them.

Ah, gotcha. Yea, you made it seem like OP was so far left/right it wrapped around, which isn’t what’s going on (or something that happens).

Yep, it’s kinda funny when they get upset at getting called out for it too.

I was absolutely good-faith. I don’t agree with describing Maduro as a dictator, and I gave my reasoning. Are you referring to the bit at the end, where GrammarPolice made a couple of posts on MWoG that you commented on? I think it’s fair to call that out.

Edie is being sarcastic, btw.

What makes Maduro an dictator? He’s popularly supported, was democratically elected, and is setting up participatory systems in the economy. I can agree that he’s “authoritarian” against capitalists and fascists, but that’s absolutely a good use of authority.

Secondly, there’s no evidence to the notion that “power corrupts,” just correlation. In systems like capitalism, corrupt leaders are pushed upwards because that’s profitable, it wasn’t the power that corrupted them but a system that selects for corruption.

Tell the cryptofash on MeanwhileOnGrad that they’re a hoot, btw.

NATO is the millitary alliance of the world’s imperialist powers. This group of countries uses this alliance to prevent the global south from going against it and liberating themselved from foreign plunder via overwhelming financial domination. The way imperialism tends to work in the modern day is countries like the US, France, Germany, UK, etc expropriate vast wealth from countries in the global south, similar to how capitalists steal value created by the working class.

NATO is as “defensive” as the Iron Dome in Israel. These countries export genocide and terrorism on the third world, expropriate huge sums of wealth, and then “defend” against anyone that pushes back against that.

That’s the joke, though. It isn’t horseshoe theory, implying the far left and right are the same or more similar than different, it’s just a joke about the DPRK using red white and blue in their flag.