Games on Linux are great now this is why I fully moved to Linux. Is the the work place Pc’s market improving.
People can’t be bothered to run better messaging apps. Expecting them to change OS is crazy
I think part of the problem is that while Linux software is constantly getting more user friendly, the average user is getting less knowledgeable about computers at just as fast of a rate. People even understanding the concept of files and folders doesn’t seem to be a given anymore.
Everything mainstream is a black box corporate ecosystem these days. Kids learn how to use specific programs and mobile apps, but don’t learn anything about the OS or machine itself because everything is isolated and “just works”.
It’s a really weird spot to be in. We’re used to the older generations being bad with tech, but now it’s also the younger ones too.
You use an interesting example- personally, I feel like while files and folders have their place, I prefer they be part of the background and not presented to the user. Take photos, for example. If I’m looking for pictures of my dog, I don’t want to go into the 2022 folder, then the August folder, then look through all those files, back out into 2022 then go into the September folder, etc. I just want to type ‘dog’. Or pick from a dropdown list of common tags, or anything other than digging through files and folders.
Yeah, I grew up in the 90s where schools and offices had physical filing cabinets full of folders and files. And in the late 90s when learning computers at school those same concepts were reinforced in the computer file system. So files and folders within the context of using a computer is ingrained and seems obvious to me.
But kids these days are born with iPads in their hand, they use Chromebooks in primary school, and all their files are automatically saved to the cloud and immediately available on all their devices. How would they ever learn the concepts of filesystems? It’s not taught at school. It’s not relevant to anything they do.
It used to make me so frustrated (it’s a simple concept!) but now I get it. Maybe it’s not as obvious a paradigm as we thought. Maybe there are better ways of organising files (eg, tagging, keywords, filtering) that are more human. Or using namespacing (ns prefixes, curies). Or even using non-local universal identifiers (ipfs locators). It makes me wonder if we might eventually even move away from hierarchical-directory based filesystems at the system level too.
I mean hierarchy is how we find any specific item in the real world though, so it seems like the best way to organize things on a computer. If I’m looking for a pair of scissors I know to go into my house, into my kitchen, into the drawer, and take the scissors. You can use tagging and things to search, but having that be the main way of accessing files will never be as reliable or repeatable as just looking where you know the file is.
Precisely- it’s a concept that is ingrained in people to the point where anyone who doesn’t understand it is viewed as lacking. However, it’s needless.
I don’t need to understand IP addressing subnet routing to go to a website. Why should I need to understand a file and folder structure to find an old tax document?
Part of the problem there is that we don’t teach people how to actually use computers, we teach how to use specific programs instead usually.
A few months back I saw a post somewhere about how “kids these days don’t know how to read an analog clock”. And it’s the exact same thing, you have to teach people how to use them. You don’t just innately know how to use these things we created.
I grew up in the 2000s and got taught how to read an analog clock in like the first year of school.
I remember me teacher made a clock face on paper with the two arms pinned on. I brought up my parents had a clock with ‘lines instead of numbers’ and she taught everyone roman numerals on the spot.
What are teachers doing nowadays?
A lot of teachers are really underpaid and have a lot of students to worry about. And that’s on top of parents wanting to meddle in their kids education and schools trying to cram more into the same amount of time. So it’s not always possible for teachers to be able to teach everything they need to, let alone other useful things to know.
And well what I said in my original comment about people just expecting others to know things without bothering to teach them. Years ago I was expected to know how to sign my name in cursive when the school district that I was in cut cursive when I was in kindergarten. Thankfully I had a teacher who actually taught me how to later on but otherwise I wouldn’t have known.
Be preinstalled on laptops/desktops.
everything else is ready unless you use niche software. Most people just use a browser and word or a pdf editor.
note the distro MUST be an immutable up to date kde flatpak using one for normal people, however
actually, MUST NOT. The moment I see “this is immutable, all things are flatpack/snap/etc.”, I am out, and not because of being a dev myself
I disagree on one thing. I think gnome is actually better for laptops and kde is better for desktops. A laptops with gnomes gesture navigation is just so much nicer to use with a trackpad. And with people already being used to phones i think gestures will come naturally to them.
For beginners KDE is much more familiar, and is generally the better pick regardless. I’m not saying this is the best choice for everyone, but it’s the best choice when you don’t know anything.
I was in agreement until you talk about flatpak…
Flatpak is infinitely easier for people who don’t know what they’re doing, because it’s sandboxed and separate from the native system. If you know what you’re doing it’s different though, I don’t use them personally.
My opinion on flatpak is that it only allows developers to be loosy with dependencies. I’m convinced it will fall appart in a decade or two because it’s too messy and bloated as a technical solution.
It’s just a weird linux distro that you install atop your distro, honestly, I have no idea why you think that.
Piling abstraction layers is bad design imo. For performances, complexity and maintenance.
But this one in particular vastly reduces maintenance, doesn’t do anything at all to performance, and only arguably adds complexity, I think it needs to be case by case.
It does not reduces maintenance. And it costs hard drive, and with heavy use, probably ram too
Redundancy of dependencies in different versions, might also be loaded in ram in different version, which can add its own kind of problems in some circumstances.
Maintenance is only reduced on the surface level. The complexity you don’t see as a problem is the actual maintenance problem. It’s not a problem only if you’re not the one dealing with integration, maintenance or security.
Default install from box store systems
Come pre installed. As much as it pains me, LTT guy is probably right to a degree as well. Shit needs to work without tinkering. Personally I don’t mind some tinkering - enjoy it even. But the average Joanne does not.
There are already computers that come with Linux right out of the box. It’s needs more than that.
You need to be able to walk into a big box store, get a Linux computer right off the shelf, and take it home. That’s what’s needed here.
Once you get people to userstabdnits a different kind of computer they would take to it fine. iPad and chromebooks sell just fine and they don’t run windows or macOS. I refuse to believe Microsoft and Apple are the only ones who can sell a computer.
They exist yes. Go ask the average person on the street the name more than one of them. At best some might know system 76. But can they buy them at the local best buy, apple store, or micro center? Lots of places don’t have a micro center. Micro center at least sells Linux and BSD media. I haven’t been in 8 months. But for the last 30 years they haven’t sold a pre installed system. Much less best buy or apple store.
Yes that’s…exactly my point.
Upon better reading it absolutely was. Disregard me.
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I think with any alternative to big tech the problem is most people are really unwilling to change their habits and make short term compromises. A lot of people know on a surface level that big tech is stealing their data etc. But actually changing their habits goes to far.
Another issue is that its more or less a systemic issue.
To many people aren’t even awear of what FOSS even is. The state of Foss and is a bit complicated where you do have organizations and activists advocating for it but also gigantic corporations that use Foss technology and exploit the free labor that goes into it.
There definitely needs to be more activism for FOSS technology and alternatives to big tech. And those alternatives should be open to everyone like Linux is. Of course there are always multiple reasons why something isn’t used but I do think it is important to look at a bigger perspective than individual consumer/ in this case users
Adding my voice to the hardware compatibility issue. While most hardware just works, Linux usually lacks the ability to configure the device. Audio interfaces are a good example of this. They work but you can’t set the sample rate or enable any custom features on ANY of them.
I believe government regulators should step in and require hardware manufacturers to provide Linux support equal to Windows or Mac. This could be relaxed for low volume or highly specialised devices, but mainstream consumer stuff should be more universal.
They need to be able to buy accessory products that do more harm than good. It’s can’t be a proper alternative to windows without CCleaner support!
Deciding on what is the best distro
Most of the comments here seem to be from the consumer perspective, but if you want broader adoption, you need to consider the corporate market too. Most corporate software these days is web-based, so the problem is less with the software and more with the people responsible for it.
The biggest hurdle is friction with the internal IT team. They like Windows because that’s all they ever learnt and they’re not interested in maintaining a diverse set of company laptops. They won’t entertain Linux in a corporate environment unless it’s mandated by management, and even if the bosses approve it, IT will want a way to lock you out of your laptop, force updates, do a remote wipe, etc.
There are (proprietary) tools to do some of this, but they generally suck and often clash with your package manager. Microsoft is just way ahead of Linux in the “bloatware that tours your hands” department.
This is it. Exactly it. Internal IT management wants a good, centrally managed system to lock down and control corporate devices. Heck, corporations often even contract this task (and help desk) to management companies.
Let’s assume the tools and the experts are there to perform these remote management shenanigans, after this it only comes to “money talks”. Don’t have to replace a 2-4yo laptop with a new one if the old one still performs fine for another 2-4 years. So then you have to weigh the cost of expertise against slower amortization.
My company disabled VPN access for anything but macOS and Win11. Because even though the VPN we use is mandated to be used with a closed source app, and the app has a Linux version, the IT dudes couldn’t exit vim when asked to manually edit /etc/environment
the IT dudes couldn’t exit vim when asked to manually edit /etc/environment
Lol, my brother/sister in christ what kind of IT are they hiring these days? i cant, i just cant
For the vast majority of users Linux is just a worse deal. Only thing that really comes to mind that Linux does that users care about is that it will support that hardware that Windows 11 will leave behind, and even those users will happily just run Windows 10 without updates and if that bites them in the ass then maybe they’ll upgrade or just ask their IT friend to use a bypass to make Windows 11 at least work on their old hardware.
Otherwise, of the things users actually care about, Linux has worse app support to the point that even pro-Linux users would rather dual-boot that lose access to their games and worse hardware support. Linux also has a problem of not being well understood by a lot of tech folk so if you bring somebody onboard you better be ready to be their only point of support.
ChromeOS is probably the best example against this since it is basically just a browser, the laptops it sells on are substantially better value than their budget counterparts and realistically a lot of the people buying them are parents for their kids so the user’s preference is substantially pushed aside in favour of cost. The SteamDeck is another good counter-example since it essentially refuses to compete with the PC gaming market by calling itself a handheld.
Linux is stuck in the crappy position of needing more users to get more software and hardware support but users need better software and hardware support for Linux to make sense compared to Windows. It’s getting better and Valve’s efforts have steadily brought the Linux gaming percentage up but it’s still the enthusiast OS.
By all means encourage it’s usage though. Linux is a far more open and privacy-respecting option and the more tech folk and basic-usage users that adopt it the better!
In Enterprise: manageability. It’s hard to overstate how powerful Windows Group Policy is. Being able to configure every single aspect of the OS and virtually all major applications, Microsoft or otherwise, using a single application that can apply rules dynamically based on user, device, user or device groups, time of day, location, battery level, form factor, etc, etc. Nothing on Linux comes close, especially when simplicity is a factor, and until it does most large organisations won’t touch it with a barge pole.
Came here to say this. My workplace used to offer a Linux workstation option (which I opted in for 9 years), but they had to remove that option to fulfill new security and management, compliance standards. They need to be able to manage exactly which applications are installed on a system, which binaries are allowed to run and when, the exact settings for every application, the exact version of the OS and the specific updates, and precisely when updates are installed. All of this needs to be applied based on the user, their organisational division, their security groups, clearance level, specific model of device, etc.
I know that using a combination of Selinux, Kerberos, and something like Puppet can get you close in the Linux world, but Microsoft group policy has been around for 30 years and is well understood and just works.
I think the gap between what the average Linux user thinks is ease of use and what the average non Linux user thinks is ease of use is probably much larger and many devs seem to understand.
I think it would be beneficial to have a completely idiot proof installer that doesn’t ask you about partitions or formatting or basically anything just point it towards a drive and it will set up a default installation.
More GUI based means of doing basic stuff. A casual who wants to access some photos from his laptop does not want to figure out how to manually configure samba shares by editing config files in their terminal based text editor.
I think codecs are a much bigger pain in the ass than is ideal. As I understand that there are legal reasons for this but the first time some casual goes to play a video and gets an error message their first thought may not be “let me search Google and figure out what this error message means” their first thought maybe “Linux sucks and can’t play videos”.
The permission structure that makes Linux so secure makes it a little annoying for casuals. For example, you actively and intentionally go to the default software store, navigate to the updates tab, update a package you’ve already installed and clearly want, and do so from the official OS repository… This requires that you enter your password to protect you from what exactly? It’s not a big deal it takes one second to type my password, but how would you explain this to a casual in a way that makes sense? Your OS is protecting you from potentially rogue acts of official patches to your default text editor.
I think the folder structures are pretty big challenge for converts. On Windows you can find most of the files associated with any given program in your program files folder. On Mac there’s an applications folder. On Linux… it’s somewhere, don’t worry about it. That’s not really a fixable one it just is what it is.
Probably the best response here. I’d also add the moment the user has to deal with using the CLI that is it for them. I can’t imagine the average consumer going into config files or even dealing with “chmod”. It is like auto enthusiasts rolling their eyes at people who don’t change their own spark plugs or oil.
I’m reminded of a video I saw of a woman talking about her dating prospects using M&Ms. She poured a bunch on the table as a metaphor for her dating pool, and slid away M&Ms as she ruled the people they represent out. “8 million people in the city. But half are women slides half of the M&Ms away of the remaining 4 million men, 20% are under 25, slides more M&Ms away” until she got to a point where she had one candy left, and then she shattered it with a meat tenderizer and continued sliding pieces of it away.
You can do that for potential adoptees of Linux, because there are a bunch of filters in series you have to pass through before successfully adopting Linux.
8 billion people on the planet.
Subtract the Sentinelese and Amish and North Koreans and everyone else who just outright doesn’t have access to computers. Nothing we can really do about them and in some cases it would be unethical to try.
Now subtract out the people who only use a mobile device like a cell phone or tablet, which are locked to their OSes. Android or iOS is as much a part of the hardware as a microwave oven’s firmware is to them. Linux on mobile devices (excluding Android) is in a severely rough state, there’s basically no hardware and software combo that is ready for daily driving.
Now subtract out the people who do use a PC or other device, that won’t ever install an operating system on a computer themselves. You’ll get some of these folks by selling computers with Linux installed in stores and such, though I think you’ll have to address a few other points later. I think SteamOS is demonstrating this.
Now subtract the people who might install Linux themselves, say PC builders who would have to install an OS anyway, but bounce off the process of choosing a distro and then installing. The big distributors like Canonical and Fedora tend toward marketing wankshit instead of human language. You can’t tell their goddamn websites “I just want the normal end-user desktop version with KDE please.” Does “Core” mean our main, central product, or the IoT embedded system version? You kind of have to know Fedora calls their Gnome edition “Workstation” and if you want “normal Fedora but with KDE” that’s a “Spin.” Then you get the Trendy Fork Of The Month, things like Bazzite and Nobara that pretty much are Fedora or Ubuntu with a theme applied, maybe some actual features in the OS, but often just a redone onboarding process, like I think it’s Bazzite that offers a configurator on their website that lets you pick your desktop and such. Defuckulating the onboarding process of major distros might allow us to do away with the Trendy Fork Of The Month.
Now subtract the folks who get a Linux machine up and running and then bounce off of the unfamiliar UI. I’m pretty sure this is Gnome’s fault more often than not, Gnome is deliberately hostile to both distro maintainers and end users to the point there are now four DEs that are “We can’t do this anymore” forks of Gnome: MATE, Cinnamon, Unity and Cosmic. You’d probably see more people stick with Linux if it was less easy to stumble dick first into Gnome.
Now subtract the people who got this far and then said “My CAD/art/music/office/finance/whatever software doesn’t run on this.” and had to switch back. In a lot of cases, software like that exists in the FOSS ecosystem but it’s significantly inferior, like FreeCAD or GIMP. These are often kept in a deliberately shitty state because some opinionated programmer likes how the code they wrote in 2004 looks in their IDE, so open software continues to be unadoptable and people continue to pay subscriptions to the Captain Planet villains in charge of Microsoft, Apple, Google and Adobe.
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now thats just ignorance.
Explain the permanent state of GIMP’s UI without deliberate sabotage.
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does the average Korean citizen have a PC of their own?
.
CAD software.
FreecCAD just released it’s first full version and it’s a pain to use. Back in 2018 somebody said FOSS CAD software was at least ten years behind the big windows commercial software. I think now it’s about fifteen behind.
I disagree. Majority of average office workers do not use CAD software. It’s not a hurdle to widespread adoption.
Majority of average office workers do not use CAD software.
That really depends on the office, doesn’t it? Project Managers, Detailers and Engineers should be familiar with CAD software.
