It would be a lot more accurate if you edited your comment so that every instance of “carbs” was replaced with “calories”. Cave-people had no way of knowing what any of the nutrients were in the foods they ate. Their enemy was starvation. Ours is the opposite, and all sources of calories contribute to weight gain. Sugars, fats, and salt are considered the three main villains in highly processed food addiction, not sugar alone. What you’re describing is known as the toxic food environment.
I worked as a pharmacy tech for a while, in a grocery store. My pharmacist had informed me that pharmacies, at least the ones in grocery stores, generally operate at a loss. So why keep them? I don’t know if there are any tax benefits of kickbacks, but what is known is that the regulars at the pharmacy were spending twice as much on groceries as everyone else. What were the lion’s share of medications in the pharmacy? Various heart disease and high blood pressure meds, stuff for diabetes, and various forms of ozempic-type meds. There were other things too of course, but you can see this pretty clear picture of, as before, a toxic food environment gently manipulating everyone into eating all the hyper-palatable foods that are making them sick, and then needing to get prescriptions for medications in the pharmacy at the same store where they are buying all of the things that are poisoning them into needing those meds in the first place. It’s pretty disgusting right?
But again, it’s not just carbs. If you look at the various sugar diets - those will actually cause rapid weight loss. They’re terrible diets, don’t do them, but they will result in probably even more short-term weight loss than keto. Neither are sustainable, see my comment here for more on keto. In short, keto is absolutely garbage and should be avoided.
I do not eat whatever I want, nor am I young. When I was 30, one of my family members had died of a heart attack at the age of 46. I was already working on shifting to a more vegan lifestyle after seeing one of those documentaries that showed what factory farms are like, but seeing a loved one die at such a young age and such a close age to where I was at the time added urgency in learning more about the nutritional side of things, which is what led to my following a generally whole-food plant-based diet. Easily one of the best decisions I have ever made in my entire life.
I’m going to believe metabolic doctors on this. No offense but a pharmacy tech, even a pharmacist, is not a metabolic doctor.
It would be a lot more accurate if you edited your comment so that every instance of “carbs” was replaced with “calories”.
This is factually false. Not all sources of calories are equal. It’s sugars that cause the “must have more” reaction in your brain. Fats and proteins do not do this.
Sugars in this case can come from a grape, a piece of candy, a bit of bread or pasta. Complex carbohydrates do this. They not only make you want more but cause a reaction in your body that prevents you from stopping even when you’re outrageously full.
Again, if you’re a healthy adult with a good relationship with food I’m happy for you. That’s not most people. You are not a doctor, you should not be attempting to stand in the way of people finding a healthy diet because you have baseless opinions on carbohydrates.
My role as a pharmacy tech had nothing to do with the validity of any statements regarding nutrition, nor were they meant to. It was simply an anecdote to emphasize the insidious nature of our toxic food environment. Also, while credentials matter, that’s also a genetic fallacy. The strength of a claim rests solely on the evidence to back it up.
I can’t speak for protein, but sugars, fats, and salts have all been shown to be addicting. It’s not just sugar. Also, that grape has fiber and phytonutrients, that’s actually a good source of carbs. Literally just a few nights ago I was snacking on grapes and then stopped long before I finished the bag - because I felt full.
My opinions are mostly inline with the scientific consensus, which holds the overall Mediterranean dietary pattern as the gold standard of health and longevity - of which whole-food plant-based diets are usually inline with. Can you show any valid authority on nutrition who uses keto as the basis of their dietary guidelines?
the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat. keto works for that reason, and also for the satiation factor; fat is the most satiating macronutrient (although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual; i would still challenge you to overeat on keto to the point you gained substantial weight - i thought i’ve been overeating for weeks and it turns out i’ve lost 5 lbs 💀)
as with any diet, your health depends on still getting all of the critical nutruents you need (protein minimums, fat minimums, specific amino acids, vitamins, minerals), and some of that requires more management on keto (sodium, potassium, and magnesium usually require supplementation, ime; fiber is a good call as well, depending on your intake of leafy greens)
your link about keto just links to… this post, it seems like, so i can’t say anything in response to it. but keto is a sustainable and healthy long term diet. i have lived it for about 9 years. i would probably agree we have a toxic food environment (your guy was way too condescending and sarcastic for me to tolerate, sorry), but i would say keto is a very good diet for adapting in a healthy way to this toxic food environment
unfortunately, it would be difficult for me, personally, to follow an entirely plant based diet, partly based on satiety and partly because i’m allergic to soy. i also suspect i wouldn’t tolerate plant based carbs much better than i tolerate other carbs, as someone who suspects he’s been self-treating diabetes, possibly for a decade (rice and potatoes are plant based and they definitely still fuck me up lol)
additionally, i have concerns about your knowledge on the subject. satiety is a very important subject when it comes to food health, which we’ve discovered with recent studies and the advent of GLP-1s, and you don’t mention it at all in your post (especially given, you do talk about meds in your post?), so i don’t know if you really have all the knowledge you should when speaking on this subject. a pharmacy tech does not specialize in nutritional science (not that i do either, but i at least live and read about this shit)
finally, i will say that keto, while being a good diet you can do long term and healthily, is not for everyone. not everyone can survive the 2-4 week period of initially weaning yourself off carbs. that’s totally understandable, and for those people, it would be better to focus on whole food, nutritious meals, exercise, and calorie management, along with the advice of a doctor and any medications they may need. a plant based/whole food based diet may also help, but has similar compliance requirements and probably issues that keto does
at least keto lets you have treats, as long as they’re not carbohydrates lol
the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat.
Prove it, show sources.
keto works for that reason, and also for the satiation factor; fat is the most satiating macronutrient
I don’t think feeling sick is the same thing as satiety. And again, please prove that “fat is the most satiating.” I want to see the science.
… and some of that requires more management on keto …
At least you admit that people quite often experience deficiencies on keto, saves me the trouble of breaking out the studies. And yeah, regardless of which diet, the more fiber the better.
your link about keto just links to… this post
It linked to one of my earlier comments because I didn’t feel like saying all the same stuff over again.
unfortunately, it would be difficult for me, personally, to follow an entirely plant based diet, partly based on satiety and partly because i’m allergic to soy.
Yeah soy is a pretty common allergy, and a lot of plant-based proteins are based on it. There are challenges there, but also a myriad of other plant-based protein sources. Getting used to plant-based diets is hard for nearly everyone at first, but it gets easier with practice and frankly starts to feel liberating in a lot of ways when adjusted to. Learning how to make seitan, for instance, opens up a lot of options. And regarding plant carb difficulties, I would suggest studying the Mastering Diabetes program which I linked to in that other comment. The single most important thing for diabetes treatment is weight loss and maintaining a healthy bodyweight. This is why virtually every diet tribe can make claims that their diet “cures” diabetes (type 2 that is), and it’s because virtually any diet can result in weight loss for at least some people.
satiety is a very important subject when it comes to food health, which we’ve discovered with recent studies and the advent of GLP-1s, and you don’t mention it at all in your post
Not true, I talked about satiety in my other comment that I linked to. Whole-food plant-based diets are very satiating, and as I also said in that comment, vegans are consistently shown to have the lowest bodyweights of any dietary groups.
My comment about being a pharmacy tech was never intended to lend any credibility to my claims, it was just a personal anecdote to further highlight the insidious nature of our toxic food environment.
At any rate, here is another video from that “condescending and sarcastic guy.” It’s about naturally boosting glp-1 through diet. I would suggest not even watching it, and instead looking closely at all the scientific studies he cited.
“Interpretation: Both high and low percentages of carbohydrate diets were associated with increased mortality, with minimal risk observed at 50-55% carbohydrate intake. Low carbohydrate dietary patterns favouring animal-derived protein and fat sources, from sources such as lamb, beef, pork, and chicken, were associated with higher mortality, whereas those that favoured plant-derived protein and fat intake, from sources such as vegetables, nuts, peanut butter, and whole-grain breads, were associated with lower mortality, suggesting that the source of food notably modifies the association between carbohydrate intake and mortality.”
grilling me for sources when you link one study that doesn’t even mention keto is crazy. and it’s very hard to take you seriously when you keep linking a literal diet agency who profits off the exact narrative you’re pushing, it would be a LOT better if you stuck to your arguments alone and didn’t link them
(the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat)
so the foundational lecture about this is “sugar: the bitter truth” by robert lustig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM). regrettably, it’s a lecture which is 90 minutes long (and gets quite in the weeds with the biochem), so i’ll summarize it for you (although it’s a very good watch, he’s both smart and a fantastic speaker):
he shows the the link between fructose and metabolic syndrome / the obesity epidemic (also a note that fructose does not suppress ghrelin, the hunger hormone)
he shows that the relationship between coronary heart disease and dietary fat only works with the presence of sucrose (the original study showing this didn’t do the math correctly)
he shows that LDL is measured in two separate types, one which correlates with heart disease and one which doesn’t. he shows that the bad type of LDL raises in relationship to carbs.
overall, the argument lustig makes is that the healthiest diets are either (in energy) all carb or all fat. so, you’ll note that i’m not actually shit talking a (whole-foods*) plant-based diet. i think it’s probably good and just sounds really miserable to be on (same with any carb-based diet); but, in my opinion, healthiness is just about finding the type of misery you can live with. it turns out my preferred misery is no carbs. if yours is no fats, or only plants, i’m not gonna stop you. good for you
in fact, i think it’s significant to, here, point out that one could dovegetarian or vegan keto; and i don’t think many people would argue with you that a plant-based keto is probably healthier than an animal-based keto. it’s just really hard; and looking at the risks of metabolic syndrome that folks who typically go keto have to weigh (they have a typical profile of: not having good impulse control when eating, suffer from little satiation when eating high carb foods, tend to really enjoy junk food) - the animal-based keto wins out hugely as something that’s both healthier and practically maintainable
you wanna go tell people on keto to eat more greens? please, be my guest. i’ll join you
(fat is the most satiating macronutrient)
honestly, this seemed like conventional wisdom to me. i didn’t think we were going to argue about this- what’s more satiating, a shot of heavy cream or literally any carb of comparable energy level? but i also think this probably varies by individual (please note my quote from my last post “although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual”); however, for the average person, i think it’s probably difficult to overeat fats; and it’s easy enough for the average person to overeat carbs. these are basically stereotypical truths lmao
anyways, this does appear to be a generally supported statement, even if my personal experience leads me to think it’s probably still varies more by individual:
and a lot of it probably has to do with your statement:
I don’t think feeling sick is the same thing as satiety.
LMAO which is so funny because i’ve eaten a lot of carbs and a lot of protein and i just do not feel full compared to when i get a good dose of fat. and if that doesn’t do it for you, that’s cool! do what works for you. it just so happens keto works for some people, too. i really wish you would allow for different people having different experiences in your arguments
At least you admit that people quite often experience deficiencies on keto, saves me the trouble of breaking out the studies.
😭 yeah salt management on keto is a pretty normal thing, it causes the phenomenon people often get when starting keto called “keto flu”, which is caused by the loss in water weight that you get on keto (also where your body buffers salts), as well. just like on vegan diets, you often need to supplement protein, but i’m not out here putting you on blast for that shit LMAO
The single most important thing for diabetes treatment is weight loss and maintaining a healthy bodyweight.
this is really funny because i’m not overweight. or, well, if you could 1.5 bmi out of the “healthy” range on the bmi scale? /shrug but i’m not like, obese like a lot of folks with diabetes are. i think i just ate like shit for too long as a teenager and ruined my ability to handle sugar. that didn’t go away because i lost weight and stopped eating sugar (i know this because i went off keto for some time and gave myself a bunch of scary-as-shit diabetes symptoms 💀)
your all-risk mortality study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30122560/
💀 💀 💀i run into this issue a lot when i’m trying to learn about keto, because i really don’t like the definition most studies use for it. most studies claim that keto is something like ~40% carbohydrate energy in the diet; which, if you ask anyone who ACTUALLY does keto, they will tell you that is FUCKED. we’re over here on like <10% from carbs, it is ALL fats and proteins. so i don’t think think this represents keto folks very well; it doesn’t include the diet demographics in any more detail than “carbohydrate amounts of <40%/50-55%/70%+”, and given it was published in 2018 and followed people for 25 years, which was long before keto was really blew up, so i doubt anyone on keto is actually represented in here at all, or at best, a severe minority
i want to close out by saying that the choice you’re framing here between “plant based diet” and “keto diet” isn’t a real choice. the choice most people who go on keto are making is between “horrible shitty diet that will kill you” and “keto”. plant-based, in itself, is a horribly unreliable guideline when even rice and potatoes can make you sick; there are plenty of processed “plant based” foods which are also just garbage. it’s just not a guideline that will work for many people in the keto group
you can (kind of) make a stronger argument by saying “whole food plant based diet”, but then you lose out a bunch of people who don’t have time to cook or don’t like plants very much; that, in combination with “rice and potatoes are still very sugary”, means that you actually have to have quite a restricted diet on top of it being “plant based” to execute it correctly
this is not the case with keto. no carbs. that’s it, that’s the rule
unfortunately, the long term evidence that keto is safe or unsafe is hard to come by. it’s not really been studied a lot; it’s still relatively new and the populations that they would study tend to drop the diet due to non-compliance (i.e. they wanna eat carbs). so yeah, like, maybe it would be more accurate to say “we don’t really know” rather than “it’s safe” or “it’s unsafe”. i think it’s fairly easy to say it’s better, even long term, than the shitty diet we would otherwise be eating, so i still generally advocate for it. i don’t think people should not do something that improves their overall health, just because it might be bad like 20-30+ years down the line. it will almost certainly be better than how they would get there otherwise
It would be a lot more accurate if you edited your comment so that every instance of “carbs” was replaced with “calories”. Cave-people had no way of knowing what any of the nutrients were in the foods they ate. Their enemy was starvation. Ours is the opposite, and all sources of calories contribute to weight gain. Sugars, fats, and salt are considered the three main villains in highly processed food addiction, not sugar alone. What you’re describing is known as the toxic food environment.
I worked as a pharmacy tech for a while, in a grocery store. My pharmacist had informed me that pharmacies, at least the ones in grocery stores, generally operate at a loss. So why keep them? I don’t know if there are any tax benefits of kickbacks, but what is known is that the regulars at the pharmacy were spending twice as much on groceries as everyone else. What were the lion’s share of medications in the pharmacy? Various heart disease and high blood pressure meds, stuff for diabetes, and various forms of ozempic-type meds. There were other things too of course, but you can see this pretty clear picture of, as before, a toxic food environment gently manipulating everyone into eating all the hyper-palatable foods that are making them sick, and then needing to get prescriptions for medications in the pharmacy at the same store where they are buying all of the things that are poisoning them into needing those meds in the first place. It’s pretty disgusting right?
But again, it’s not just carbs. If you look at the various sugar diets - those will actually cause rapid weight loss. They’re terrible diets, don’t do them, but they will result in probably even more short-term weight loss than keto. Neither are sustainable, see my comment here for more on keto. In short, keto is absolutely garbage and should be avoided.
I do not eat whatever I want, nor am I young. When I was 30, one of my family members had died of a heart attack at the age of 46. I was already working on shifting to a more vegan lifestyle after seeing one of those documentaries that showed what factory farms are like, but seeing a loved one die at such a young age and such a close age to where I was at the time added urgency in learning more about the nutritional side of things, which is what led to my following a generally whole-food plant-based diet. Easily one of the best decisions I have ever made in my entire life.
I’m going to believe metabolic doctors on this. No offense but a pharmacy tech, even a pharmacist, is not a metabolic doctor.
This is factually false. Not all sources of calories are equal. It’s sugars that cause the “must have more” reaction in your brain. Fats and proteins do not do this.
Sugars in this case can come from a grape, a piece of candy, a bit of bread or pasta. Complex carbohydrates do this. They not only make you want more but cause a reaction in your body that prevents you from stopping even when you’re outrageously full.
Again, if you’re a healthy adult with a good relationship with food I’m happy for you. That’s not most people. You are not a doctor, you should not be attempting to stand in the way of people finding a healthy diet because you have baseless opinions on carbohydrates.
My role as a pharmacy tech had nothing to do with the validity of any statements regarding nutrition, nor were they meant to. It was simply an anecdote to emphasize the insidious nature of our toxic food environment. Also, while credentials matter, that’s also a genetic fallacy. The strength of a claim rests solely on the evidence to back it up.
I can’t speak for protein, but sugars, fats, and salts have all been shown to be addicting. It’s not just sugar. Also, that grape has fiber and phytonutrients, that’s actually a good source of carbs. Literally just a few nights ago I was snacking on grapes and then stopped long before I finished the bag - because I felt full.
My opinions are mostly inline with the scientific consensus, which holds the overall Mediterranean dietary pattern as the gold standard of health and longevity - of which whole-food plant-based diets are usually inline with. Can you show any valid authority on nutrition who uses keto as the basis of their dietary guidelines?
the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat. keto works for that reason, and also for the satiation factor; fat is the most satiating macronutrient (although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual; i would still challenge you to overeat on keto to the point you gained substantial weight - i thought i’ve been overeating for weeks and it turns out i’ve lost 5 lbs 💀)
as with any diet, your health depends on still getting all of the critical nutruents you need (protein minimums, fat minimums, specific amino acids, vitamins, minerals), and some of that requires more management on keto (sodium, potassium, and magnesium usually require supplementation, ime; fiber is a good call as well, depending on your intake of leafy greens)
your link about keto just links to… this post, it seems like, so i can’t say anything in response to it. but keto is a sustainable and healthy long term diet. i have lived it for about 9 years. i would probably agree we have a toxic food environment (your guy was way too condescending and sarcastic for me to tolerate, sorry), but i would say keto is a very good diet for adapting in a healthy way to this toxic food environment
unfortunately, it would be difficult for me, personally, to follow an entirely plant based diet, partly based on satiety and partly because i’m allergic to soy. i also suspect i wouldn’t tolerate plant based carbs much better than i tolerate other carbs, as someone who suspects he’s been self-treating diabetes, possibly for a decade (rice and potatoes are plant based and they definitely still fuck me up lol)
additionally, i have concerns about your knowledge on the subject. satiety is a very important subject when it comes to food health, which we’ve discovered with recent studies and the advent of GLP-1s, and you don’t mention it at all in your post (especially given, you do talk about meds in your post?), so i don’t know if you really have all the knowledge you should when speaking on this subject. a pharmacy tech does not specialize in nutritional science (not that i do either, but i at least live and read about this shit)
finally, i will say that keto, while being a good diet you can do long term and healthily, is not for everyone. not everyone can survive the 2-4 week period of initially weaning yourself off carbs. that’s totally understandable, and for those people, it would be better to focus on whole food, nutritious meals, exercise, and calorie management, along with the advice of a doctor and any medications they may need. a plant based/whole food based diet may also help, but has similar compliance requirements and probably issues that keto does
at least keto lets you have treats, as long as they’re not carbohydrates lol
Prove it, show sources.
I don’t think feeling sick is the same thing as satiety. And again, please prove that “fat is the most satiating.” I want to see the science.
At least you admit that people quite often experience deficiencies on keto, saves me the trouble of breaking out the studies. And yeah, regardless of which diet, the more fiber the better.
It linked to one of my earlier comments because I didn’t feel like saying all the same stuff over again.
Yeah soy is a pretty common allergy, and a lot of plant-based proteins are based on it. There are challenges there, but also a myriad of other plant-based protein sources. Getting used to plant-based diets is hard for nearly everyone at first, but it gets easier with practice and frankly starts to feel liberating in a lot of ways when adjusted to. Learning how to make seitan, for instance, opens up a lot of options. And regarding plant carb difficulties, I would suggest studying the Mastering Diabetes program which I linked to in that other comment. The single most important thing for diabetes treatment is weight loss and maintaining a healthy bodyweight. This is why virtually every diet tribe can make claims that their diet “cures” diabetes (type 2 that is), and it’s because virtually any diet can result in weight loss for at least some people.
Not true, I talked about satiety in my other comment that I linked to. Whole-food plant-based diets are very satiating, and as I also said in that comment, vegans are consistently shown to have the lowest bodyweights of any dietary groups.
My comment about being a pharmacy tech was never intended to lend any credibility to my claims, it was just a personal anecdote to further highlight the insidious nature of our toxic food environment.
At any rate, here is another video from that “condescending and sarcastic guy.” It’s about naturally boosting glp-1 through diet. I would suggest not even watching it, and instead looking closely at all the scientific studies he cited.
And again to drive the point home, you cannot call a diet that increases all-cause mortality healthy.
grilling me for sources when you link one study that doesn’t even mention keto is crazy. and it’s very hard to take you seriously when you keep linking a literal diet agency who profits off the exact narrative you’re pushing, it would be a LOT better if you stuck to your arguments alone and didn’t link them
(the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat) so the foundational lecture about this is “sugar: the bitter truth” by robert lustig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM). regrettably, it’s a lecture which is 90 minutes long (and gets quite in the weeds with the biochem), so i’ll summarize it for you (although it’s a very good watch, he’s both smart and a fantastic speaker):
overall, the argument lustig makes is that the healthiest diets are either (in energy) all carb or all fat. so, you’ll note that i’m not actually shit talking a (whole-foods*) plant-based diet. i think it’s probably good and just sounds really miserable to be on (same with any carb-based diet); but, in my opinion, healthiness is just about finding the type of misery you can live with. it turns out my preferred misery is no carbs. if yours is no fats, or only plants, i’m not gonna stop you. good for you
in fact, i think it’s significant to, here, point out that one could do vegetarian or vegan keto; and i don’t think many people would argue with you that a plant-based keto is probably healthier than an animal-based keto. it’s just really hard; and looking at the risks of metabolic syndrome that folks who typically go keto have to weigh (they have a typical profile of: not having good impulse control when eating, suffer from little satiation when eating high carb foods, tend to really enjoy junk food) - the animal-based keto wins out hugely as something that’s both healthier and practically maintainable
you wanna go tell people on keto to eat more greens? please, be my guest. i’ll join you
(fat is the most satiating macronutrient) honestly, this seemed like conventional wisdom to me. i didn’t think we were going to argue about this- what’s more satiating, a shot of heavy cream or literally any carb of comparable energy level? but i also think this probably varies by individual (please note my quote from my last post “although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual”); however, for the average person, i think it’s probably difficult to overeat fats; and it’s easy enough for the average person to overeat carbs. these are basically stereotypical truths lmao
anyways, this does appear to be a generally supported statement, even if my personal experience leads me to think it’s probably still varies more by individual:
and a lot of it probably has to do with your statement:
i want to close out by saying that the choice you’re framing here between “plant based diet” and “keto diet” isn’t a real choice. the choice most people who go on keto are making is between “horrible shitty diet that will kill you” and “keto”. plant-based, in itself, is a horribly unreliable guideline when even rice and potatoes can make you sick; there are plenty of processed “plant based” foods which are also just garbage. it’s just not a guideline that will work for many people in the keto group
you can (kind of) make a stronger argument by saying “whole food plant based diet”, but then you lose out a bunch of people who don’t have time to cook or don’t like plants very much; that, in combination with “rice and potatoes are still very sugary”, means that you actually have to have quite a restricted diet on top of it being “plant based” to execute it correctly
this is not the case with keto. no carbs. that’s it, that’s the rule
unfortunately, the long term evidence that keto is safe or unsafe is hard to come by. it’s not really been studied a lot; it’s still relatively new and the populations that they would study tend to drop the diet due to non-compliance (i.e. they wanna eat carbs). so yeah, like, maybe it would be more accurate to say “we don’t really know” rather than “it’s safe” or “it’s unsafe”. i think it’s fairly easy to say it’s better, even long term, than the shitty diet we would otherwise be eating, so i still generally advocate for it. i don’t think people should not do something that improves their overall health, just because it might be bad like 20-30+ years down the line. it will almost certainly be better than how they would get there otherwise