If DPRK nationals are barred from work, they are also often barred from trade, and barred from travel. Running airlines to and from the DPRK involves work, after all, and the DPRK would never allow another country to have their own airbase on their soil without intense agreements and concessions. They do travel and trade with Russia, China, and sometimes Cuba, and that’s because Russia and China have land bridges and trade with the DPRK. Here’s a an example of a DPRK restaurant in China. It’s staffed by DPRK nationals, and run by the DPRK state.
So they are barred from travel via plane because of NK decisions on airlines, and not banned from travel via other means (if we forget about frontier guards and all, ofc).
No? How do you have airline workers integrated with airports in hostile countries, that are supposed to repatriate anyone earning money there?
There probably could be workarounds, but it’s incredibly complicated, and there are tons of sanctions on the DPRK. They do travel to friendly countries, but there’s a ton of hostility towards them.
Because they could have airlines if they accepted foreigns workers. That part os the NK government decision, good or bad.
Let be clear : economic isolation of NK is a ofc product of both NK politics and UN embargos. But freedom of travel is not directly affected by UN. The first thing that stops NK people to travel is a border with armed guards, including with friendly states.
But they do travel to friendly states, I showed you how. The most common way to defect is to go to China and defect there, because that’s pretty easy. Prior to this order, DPRK nationals actually did do work around the world as well. Part of what’s keeping DPRK nationals in is their government, yes, but because the western world is extremely hostile to them.
From what i know
, it is not easy at all to neither go to China, neither “defect” there, neither defect from authoritarian communist countries nearby. What you ‘showed’ me is people working in China, so controlled travel.
Based on what i know, i take your affirmation that it is easy to defect frop China either as ignorance, either as propaganda. If you have good info on the traveling part, please share so i and others can learn. On the original matter, i think it’s not worth debating further if we do not share a same-ish perception of facts.
Even Wikipedia shows that defectors usually go through China, and Wikipedia is very biased against the DPRK. I don’t know what you mean by “authoritarian communist” countries, all states are “authoritarian” in that they uphold one class over others, China is socialist and the Russian Federation is capitalist. It really isn’t hard to find any of this information, but if you want more:
A bit on information from the DPRK I wrote earlier:
The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:
Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.
Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious.
In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea’s young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don’t take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.
“It’s more symbolic,” Lee said, adding, “My take is North Koreans don’t believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale.”
Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.
It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.
Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.
What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.
It’s more that I have yet to see good evidence or a goid argument to the contrary. Again, like I said, people from the DPRK do travel to Russia and China.
It’s not about forbidding NK people to leave the country, it’s about working.
If DPRK nationals are barred from work, they are also often barred from trade, and barred from travel. Running airlines to and from the DPRK involves work, after all, and the DPRK would never allow another country to have their own airbase on their soil without intense agreements and concessions. They do travel and trade with Russia, China, and sometimes Cuba, and that’s because Russia and China have land bridges and trade with the DPRK. Here’s a an example of a DPRK restaurant in China. It’s staffed by DPRK nationals, and run by the DPRK state.
So they are barred from travel via plane because of NK decisions on airlines, and not banned from travel via other means (if we forget about frontier guards and all, ofc).
No? How do you have airline workers integrated with airports in hostile countries, that are supposed to repatriate anyone earning money there?
There probably could be workarounds, but it’s incredibly complicated, and there are tons of sanctions on the DPRK. They do travel to friendly countries, but there’s a ton of hostility towards them.
Because they could have airlines if they accepted foreigns workers. That part os the NK government decision, good or bad. Let be clear : economic isolation of NK is a ofc product of both NK politics and UN embargos. But freedom of travel is not directly affected by UN. The first thing that stops NK people to travel is a border with armed guards, including with friendly states.
But they do travel to friendly states, I showed you how. The most common way to defect is to go to China and defect there, because that’s pretty easy. Prior to this order, DPRK nationals actually did do work around the world as well. Part of what’s keeping DPRK nationals in is their government, yes, but because the western world is extremely hostile to them.
From what i know , it is not easy at all to neither go to China, neither “defect” there, neither defect from authoritarian communist countries nearby. What you ‘showed’ me is people working in China, so controlled travel.
Based on what i know, i take your affirmation that it is easy to defect frop China either as ignorance, either as propaganda. If you have good info on the traveling part, please share so i and others can learn. On the original matter, i think it’s not worth debating further if we do not share a same-ish perception of facts.
Even Wikipedia shows that defectors usually go through China, and Wikipedia is very biased against the DPRK. I don’t know what you mean by “authoritarian communist” countries, all states are “authoritarian” in that they uphold one class over others, China is socialist and the Russian Federation is capitalist. It really isn’t hard to find any of this information, but if you want more:
A bit on information from the DPRK I wrote earlier:
The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:
Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious.
Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:
These aren’t tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of “state-mandated haircut styles”, as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles. As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US Empire.
Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.
It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.
In fact, many citizens who flee the DPRK actually seek to return, and are denied by the ROK. Even BBC is reporting on a high-profile case where a 95 year old veteran wishes to be buried in his homeland, sparking protests by pro-reunification activists in the ROK to help him go home in his final years.
Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.
What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.
Nodutdol, an anti-imperialist group of Korean expats, released a toolkit on better understanding the situation in Korea. This is more like homework, though.
Most defectors go through China == it is easier to cross the border / defect in China != it is easy to cross the border to China / defect in China
Cowbee has decided on a narrative and you can’t change his mind!
It’s more that I have yet to see good evidence or a goid argument to the contrary. Again, like I said, people from the DPRK do travel to Russia and China.