What right do I have to tell people how to fight back against their occupiers? I wouldn’t to Jewish people in the Nazi Ghettos fighting back either. I disagree with plenty that Hamas has done, and I criticize them for it. They’ve done war crimes, that’s unacceptable. That doesn’t change the fact that they have the right by international law to fight back against their occupiers.
The right of Palestinians to resist their occupation is enshrined in international and customary law, a fact that is denied and violated by Israel and wilfully overlooked by the rest of the world
You’re conflation between anti-Zionism / criticisms of the State of Israel and genuine antisemitism, is in itself very antisemitic. You’re attributing the actions of Israel as representative of all Jewish people, which is really fucked up. Israel doesn’t even represent all Israelis, and nowhere near all Jewish people. Just because Israel claims otherwise doesn’t make it true. Do you think B’TSelem and Jewish Voice for Peace are antisemitic too?
I’m advocating for equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians,.You are literally advocating for the destruction of the entirety of Gaza, including at best the expulsion of millions of Palestinians and at worst their execution for being ‘terrorists.’ You are exactly the same kind of person who would’ve supported Nazi Germany in the 1930’s and the forced transfer of millions of Jewish people because it’s an act of ‘self-defence.’
Wartime propagandists universally justify the use of military violence by portraying it as morally defensible and necessary. To do otherwise would jeopardize public morale and faith in the government and its armed forces. Throughout World War II, Nazi propagandists disguised military aggression aimed at territorial conquest as righteous and necessary acts of self-defense. They cast Germany as a victim or potential victim of foreign aggressors, as a peace-loving nation forced to take up arms to protect its populace…
You’ve grossly overdramatized and exaggerated what I’ve actually said.
Hamas also thinks their position is a moral one. Does that make them Nazi propogandists too? When they cast east Germany as victims of foreign aggression, they were actually lying. Don’t have to lie to say literal terrorists are in charge of Gaza, and Gaza is not a sovereign state.
And yes, saying Israel is an apartheid state is an anti Jewish statement. You want to say it’s like apartheid, fine, but apartheid means something very different, and is in and of itself a crime against humanity. Not all discrimination by the state is a crime against humanity, though. The thing that makes apartheid a crime against humanity is that it is a system of minority control over the unconsenting majority.
Saying Israel is literally an apartheid state is to treat it as inferior; it is to say that, when other states do it, it’s a matter of local custom or just a different culture doing things differently; but when it’s Israel it’s a war crime.
Apartheid is a system of minority rule. Israel is it not a system of minority rule. It is not an apartheid state. It’s guilty of barbaric, racial discrimination, for sure. In no way is it literally apartheid, and I think you’ll find that there’s not very many serious people who say that it is, not in foreign service and not in law, anyway, which is what we’re talking about, here.
I’m advocating for equal rights of Palestinians, too, just that I realize that Gaza has no government and no capacity to rebuild itself since the tunnels were so extensive. It’s sad that Hamas put them under the highest density neighborhoods in Gaza and then encouraged people not to evacuate after using them for decades to indiscriminately target Israeli civilians, but hey that’s the strategy the people in charge of Gaza have chosen.
There’s a right enshrined in international law to disguise soldiers as civilians so they can more easily violate international law? Haven’t heard of that one but you’re the expert. ✅
Making up your own definition of apartheid doesn’t make it true dude.
Apartheid is a violation of public international law, a grave violation of internationally protected human rights and a crime against humanity under international criminal law. Three main international treaties prohibit and/or explicitly criminalize apartheid: the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (Apartheid Convention) and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Rome Statute).
The framework of apartheid allows a comprehensive understanding, grounded in international law, of a situation of segregation, oppression and domination by one racial group over another. Amnesty International notes and clarifies that systems of oppression and domination will never be identical. Therefore, it does not seek to argue that, or assess whether, any system of oppression and domination as perpetrated in Israel and the OPT is, for instance, the same or analogous to the system of segregation, oppression and domination as perpetrated in South Africa between 1948 and 1994.
To determine whether Israel has created and maintained an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination, Amnesty International looked at the way Israel exerts control over the Palestinian people. It also considered a number of serious human rights violations that would constitute the crime against humanity of apartheid if committed with the intention to maintain such a system of oppression and domination.
Why don’t you just read the actual reports?
Either the Amnesty, the HRW, or the B’TSelem report. If you’re so confident that it’s not apartheid, then why don’t you go through these reports and debunk them yourself. If you are actually right like you believe, and facts are on your side, then you have nothing to fear. B’TSelem even has a quick explainer. If you find reading too monotonous, then maybe watch this video or this video or even this video first. And if you’re still in disbelief, then go back to the reports.
It’s so extensively documented. If you seriously engage with even just a single one of these links, even starting from the basis that it’s all lies and you work to debunk each one, you might start to recognize the gravity of the situation in Palestine. And more importantly, how it got like this. I dare say, you might even start to empathize with palestinians. Please dude, if you genuinely give a single shit about equal rights and ending the violence. Read these reports, watch these videos.
Yeah actually though it’s you, Amnesty, HRW, and B’Tselem who have made up a new definition of apartheid that only applies to Jews.
Maybe your problem is that you believe reports from anyone who makes them. Anyone can make a report.
Why not check the peer reviewed law review articles on this subject, see how ridiculous everyone in the actual world of law finds these one-sided and biased reports. Because, once again, apartheid is a system of a minority control over the majority, the literal opposite of democracy. Israel is a democracy, period. It cannot also be an apartheid regime such as South Africa was, unless you redefine the word, which, again, is racist, and it is what you’re doing.
So far in denial you think the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (Apartheid Convention) and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Rome Statute are all antisemitic. That human rights organizations are antisemitic, even the Jewish Israeli ones. That the UN is antisemitic. That the ICJ is antisemitic. Huh, maybe it’s not just anyone making these reports. Maybe there’s exhaustive evidence that’s independently verified and upheld to international standards of law.
"Why don’t you ignore all that and listen to just state propaganda instead?’ No shit State department propaganda defends and justifies the position of State Department actions. That’s the entire purpose of manufacturing consent. We’ve also defended our use of nuclear bombs on dense population centers, carpet bombing Vietnamese villagers, use of chemical weapons like agent orange, our invasion and terrorism of Iraq and Afghanistan, WMDs in iraq. It’s almost like US propaganda has reliably lied about and also justified the actions of the state.
You’re incredibly gullible. You’re too scared to click on any of those links, you’d rather stick to your safety net of denial. You don’t care about Apartheid, if you did you’d learn about the definitions in international law and take those reports seriously. Because they are made by human rights organizations that do highly credible work and are recognized internationally for it.
Then read the reports, because that is effectively what you’re saying when you ignore them and also promote articles by people literally working for the US State Department
People working for it, but not the Secretary, not the Deputy Secretary. There are 80,000 people working for the State Department.
Although I think you will find if you actually look at what people have said, they are saying Israel is like apartheid, not that it is apartheid.
Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not citizens of Israel. Why is it a crime against humanity for Israel to grant lesser rights to non citizens? Literally every other country does that, too. But the only time anyone calls it apartheid is when it involves Israel.
And it’s never to argue about any specific policy that Israel has toward non-citizens, it’s just to say “Israel is evil and Hamas is justified in targeting Israeli civilians.” Hmmm.
Like John Spencer? Who gets his research reviewed and rwferenced and looked at by Bibi? You think that this guy is telling you the truth and isn’t a propaganda arm of Israel???
If you discard Al Jazeera for being funded by Qatar, then be fair and discard John Spencer for being a literal propaganda pusher.
I have looked at what these organizations have said and why. Israel is guilty of the crime of Apartheid by the international standards of law. The reasons why are laid out. I’ve provided plenty of sources to show how exactly that is the case. You choose not to read the reports. You choose not to even watch the videos, which are much easier to digest. You have made the decision to be willfully ignorant. It’s on you to take that next step. Everyone is susceptible to propaganda, that includes you, that includes me. That’s why I look for independent reporting, and the works of multiple historians. That’s why I look into what sources they use and why.
I’ve looked at the NATO documents and what they claim. They use nearly exclusively military Israeli sources, which have an extensive track record of lying and fabrication. Yet NATO documents take them at face value. Other documents they use can even show contradictions to what the NATO documents claim with those sources. Those are the reasons I don’t consider it a credible source.
Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to second guess your own biases. I had a difficult time finding out all the terrible shit the US has done and continues to do on foreign policy. I still did it, because I’d rather have the full story. Even if it means coming to terms that the country I’m a citizen of (US) has done abhorrent war crimes.
You genuinely want to believe Israel is a real democracy. That’s why you’re so against seriously considering these sources and reports on how Israel is guilty of Apartheid. Because you can’t have a democracy and an Apartheid, if you have an Apartheid then you don’t have a real democracy. There is nothing more I can do for you other than point you to books by new Historians on the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
What right do I have to tell people how to fight back against their occupiers? I wouldn’t to Jewish people in the Nazi Ghettos fighting back either. I disagree with plenty that Hamas has done, and I criticize them for it. They’ve done war crimes, that’s unacceptable. That doesn’t change the fact that they have the right by international law to fight back against their occupiers.
You’re conflation between anti-Zionism / criticisms of the State of Israel and genuine antisemitism, is in itself very antisemitic. You’re attributing the actions of Israel as representative of all Jewish people, which is really fucked up. Israel doesn’t even represent all Israelis, and nowhere near all Jewish people. Just because Israel claims otherwise doesn’t make it true. Do you think B’TSelem and Jewish Voice for Peace are antisemitic too?
I’m advocating for equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians,.You are literally advocating for the destruction of the entirety of Gaza, including at best the expulsion of millions of Palestinians and at worst their execution for being ‘terrorists.’ You are exactly the same kind of person who would’ve supported Nazi Germany in the 1930’s and the forced transfer of millions of Jewish people because it’s an act of ‘self-defence.’
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/index.php/content/en/article/deceiving-the-public
You’ve grossly overdramatized and exaggerated what I’ve actually said.
Hamas also thinks their position is a moral one. Does that make them Nazi propogandists too? When they cast east Germany as victims of foreign aggression, they were actually lying. Don’t have to lie to say literal terrorists are in charge of Gaza, and Gaza is not a sovereign state.
And yes, saying Israel is an apartheid state is an anti Jewish statement. You want to say it’s like apartheid, fine, but apartheid means something very different, and is in and of itself a crime against humanity. Not all discrimination by the state is a crime against humanity, though. The thing that makes apartheid a crime against humanity is that it is a system of minority control over the unconsenting majority.
Saying Israel is literally an apartheid state is to treat it as inferior; it is to say that, when other states do it, it’s a matter of local custom or just a different culture doing things differently; but when it’s Israel it’s a war crime.
Apartheid is a system of minority rule. Israel is it not a system of minority rule. It is not an apartheid state. It’s guilty of barbaric, racial discrimination, for sure. In no way is it literally apartheid, and I think you’ll find that there’s not very many serious people who say that it is, not in foreign service and not in law, anyway, which is what we’re talking about, here.
I’m advocating for equal rights of Palestinians, too, just that I realize that Gaza has no government and no capacity to rebuild itself since the tunnels were so extensive. It’s sad that Hamas put them under the highest density neighborhoods in Gaza and then encouraged people not to evacuate after using them for decades to indiscriminately target Israeli civilians, but hey that’s the strategy the people in charge of Gaza have chosen.
There’s a right enshrined in international law to disguise soldiers as civilians so they can more easily violate international law? Haven’t heard of that one but you’re the expert. ✅
Citation please?
Meanwhile in Occupied Palestinian Territories:
Making up your own definition of apartheid doesn’t make it true dude.
Why don’t you just read the actual reports?
Either the Amnesty, the HRW, or the B’TSelem report. If you’re so confident that it’s not apartheid, then why don’t you go through these reports and debunk them yourself. If you are actually right like you believe, and facts are on your side, then you have nothing to fear. B’TSelem even has a quick explainer. If you find reading too monotonous, then maybe watch this video or this video or even this video first. And if you’re still in disbelief, then go back to the reports.
It’s so extensively documented. If you seriously engage with even just a single one of these links, even starting from the basis that it’s all lies and you work to debunk each one, you might start to recognize the gravity of the situation in Palestine. And more importantly, how it got like this. I dare say, you might even start to empathize with palestinians. Please dude, if you genuinely give a single shit about equal rights and ending the violence. Read these reports, watch these videos.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this
this
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Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Yeah actually though it’s you, Amnesty, HRW, and B’Tselem who have made up a new definition of apartheid that only applies to Jews.
Maybe your problem is that you believe reports from anyone who makes them. Anyone can make a report.
Why not check the peer reviewed law review articles on this subject, see how ridiculous everyone in the actual world of law finds these one-sided and biased reports. Because, once again, apartheid is a system of a minority control over the majority, the literal opposite of democracy. Israel is a democracy, period. It cannot also be an apartheid regime such as South Africa was, unless you redefine the word, which, again, is racist, and it is what you’re doing.
So far in denial you think the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (Apartheid Convention) and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Rome Statute are all antisemitic. That human rights organizations are antisemitic, even the Jewish Israeli ones. That the UN is antisemitic. That the ICJ is antisemitic. Huh, maybe it’s not just anyone making these reports. Maybe there’s exhaustive evidence that’s independently verified and upheld to international standards of law.
"Why don’t you ignore all that and listen to just state propaganda instead?’ No shit State department propaganda defends and justifies the position of State Department actions. That’s the entire purpose of manufacturing consent. We’ve also defended our use of nuclear bombs on dense population centers, carpet bombing Vietnamese villagers, use of chemical weapons like agent orange, our invasion and terrorism of Iraq and Afghanistan, WMDs in iraq. It’s almost like US propaganda has reliably lied about and also justified the actions of the state.
You’re incredibly gullible. You’re too scared to click on any of those links, you’d rather stick to your safety net of denial. You don’t care about Apartheid, if you did you’d learn about the definitions in international law and take those reports seriously. Because they are made by human rights organizations that do highly credible work and are recognized internationally for it.
Nah buddy, you’re putting words in my mouth that I never said.
Then read the reports, because that is effectively what you’re saying when you ignore them and also promote articles by people literally working for the US State Department
People working for it, but not the Secretary, not the Deputy Secretary. There are 80,000 people working for the State Department.
Although I think you will find if you actually look at what people have said, they are saying Israel is like apartheid, not that it is apartheid.
Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not citizens of Israel. Why is it a crime against humanity for Israel to grant lesser rights to non citizens? Literally every other country does that, too. But the only time anyone calls it apartheid is when it involves Israel.
And it’s never to argue about any specific policy that Israel has toward non-citizens, it’s just to say “Israel is evil and Hamas is justified in targeting Israeli civilians.” Hmmm.
Like this guy?
Like John Spencer? Who gets his research reviewed and rwferenced and looked at by Bibi? You think that this guy is telling you the truth and isn’t a propaganda arm of Israel???
If you discard Al Jazeera for being funded by Qatar, then be fair and discard John Spencer for being a literal propaganda pusher.
I have looked at what these organizations have said and why. Israel is guilty of the crime of Apartheid by the international standards of law. The reasons why are laid out. I’ve provided plenty of sources to show how exactly that is the case. You choose not to read the reports. You choose not to even watch the videos, which are much easier to digest. You have made the decision to be willfully ignorant. It’s on you to take that next step. Everyone is susceptible to propaganda, that includes you, that includes me. That’s why I look for independent reporting, and the works of multiple historians. That’s why I look into what sources they use and why.
I’ve looked at the NATO documents and what they claim. They use nearly exclusively military Israeli sources, which have an extensive track record of lying and fabrication. Yet NATO documents take them at face value. Other documents they use can even show contradictions to what the NATO documents claim with those sources. Those are the reasons I don’t consider it a credible source.
Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to second guess your own biases. I had a difficult time finding out all the terrible shit the US has done and continues to do on foreign policy. I still did it, because I’d rather have the full story. Even if it means coming to terms that the country I’m a citizen of (US) has done abhorrent war crimes.
You genuinely want to believe Israel is a real democracy. That’s why you’re so against seriously considering these sources and reports on how Israel is guilty of Apartheid. Because you can’t have a democracy and an Apartheid, if you have an Apartheid then you don’t have a real democracy. There is nothing more I can do for you other than point you to books by new Historians on the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict.