The Gordon Ramsey of software
In a parallel universe, there’s a version of Linus who runs a restaurant that makes noma look like a taco bell.
It’s pretty funny that Gordon Ramsey is actually a sweet guy and plays up the angry cook guy on TV.
In the UK version of Hell’s Kitchen you can see this side of him. In one episode he just hung out at the beach with his whole team and it was so wholesome.
The US show is cut in a way that emphasizes his outbursts, it’s much worse.
Same with kitchen nightmares.
In the US version, we see rage Ramsay
In the UK version we see despair Ramsay
Maybe it’s just reflective of the mood of the country
Eh, this is somewhat true, and he’s dug into this a few times. Some is put up for TV, but he’s inclined to be annoyed at people that call themselves chefs, take people’s money, and serve them sub-par products. In a few shows, like the one with Angela Hartnett where she took over The Connaught, it showed that he’s still an angry dude, but that it was needed because he’s taking over the restaurant at one of London’s finest hotels. Michelin Star places seem to be the same boiling pot of bullying and anger to strive for the best possible quality.
Some chefs, like J Kenji Lopez Alt have called it and him out several times on it, because it’s a very damaging practice, and one that spreads throughout the industry from wannabe Ramsay’s that thinks intimidation is needed to make food.
I’m sure Ramsay is a lovely guy in person, but I would hate to work for him.
18 years in restaurants checking in: Gordon Ramsay is not very far from the mean at all. In fact, I’d say he’s a mean mean man of average rage, and it’s the nature of the industry that does this to us. It’s flat-out abusive even in its best implementation, and the far and away vast majority of restaurants are purposefully exploitative. This goes double for back of house. I was usually a server or bartender, though I did work every hourly position at some point in my career. Front of house at least gets compensated more the busier they are. Back of house gets what they get whether they sell two orders of fries in an evening or they spend all shift with ten tickets on the rail and 30 open menus. Back of house also doesn’t get paid all that well, outside of a few rockstars. It’s a super high stress position, and that stress level is completely unpredictable. Any random Tuesday afternoon you could find yourself behind the line all alone as the third bus pulls into the parking lot. The extremely variable nature of the stress means two things:
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You don’t cook as a career unless you love turning out great food. You might do a couple years just because you need a job but it’s so hard on your mind and body that after a while you literally either love it or leave it.
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Eventually everyone in the kitchen becomes what Robert Anton Wilson called “…the walking wounded…slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief.” There’s a lot of PTSD in kitchens and, because hurt people hurt people, it tends to spread to new people and reinforce itself in veterans. In the highest volume store I ever worked in we used to joke that sexual harassment and bullying were just how we said “Hello”. It’s not okay, but it’s the reality on the ground. It tends to develop spontaneously because of the way restaurants work and once it takes root it’s really hard to get rid of.
So the average restaurant worker is half Anthony Bourdain, here for the love of food and people, trying to experience new and great things and build new and great things for other people to experience just out of a general enthusiasm for humanity. He’s also half Gordon Ramsay, throwing an overcooked steak back at you because a cow had to die to make it and our guest had to sell a little bit of their life to afford it, so you will fucking respect both of their sacrifices and turn out some good fucking food. It’s love, and it’s pride, and it’s trauma, and it’s passion for what is essentially an unrecognized folk art. And if it paid the bills I’d go back in a heartbeat.
You absolutely nailed it.
It’s an incredibly intense environment with a culture of accepted abuse (hate that I’m saying that), as well as a lot of exploitation.
His anger in real life is like… Below average of the food industry. Where his TV persona is way up there for entertainment.
his “putting on a show of being angry for the cameras” is a bit below average tbh. people who’ve never been in a kitchen find it shocking, and the rest of us are like “well he didn’t actually break anything and the idiot sandwich thing was really funny”
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Linus is also said to be a sweet guy IRL and only became the angry kernel guy on the mailing list.
You mean when he’s not admitting to felony crimes to advance his career?
Oh no is this going to be one of those moments where a celebrity I think is neat, I suddenly get news about how they’re a PoS?
I just learned about Chuck Norris a few months ago and I’m not ready 😭😭😭
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The tone may be a bit harsh but it’s muuuuch better than how he used to be during his most toxic days. This is how he used to talk: https://www.networkworld.com/article/706908/security-torvalds-to-bad-security-devs-kill-yourself-now.html
Linus definitely got much better at handling his anger since his public apology in 2018.
[I]f you have anything to do with security in a distro, and think that my kids (replace ‘my kids’ with ‘sales people on the road’ if you think your main customers are businesses) need to have the root password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper, or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The world will be a better place,” he wrote.
Hah love it
I can’t believe linus did a “KILL YOURSELF, NOW” before it was cool
*someone uploads a shitty pull request*
Linus: kys
reads the article
considers the triggers prompting the outburst
He’s… not wrong.
Not right, but definitely not wrong. There is a big difference between effective security and total security. He was dumping on total security, which in many ways is worse than no security at all.
Indeed, I think he just wanted to get the point across that it is a dangerous approach.
It was never a question of being technically right or wrong. Linus’ realization was that his inflammatory language was viewed as permission by other people in the Linux community to be verbally abusive to their peers. People who had been valuable contributors to Linux projects explained to Linus how they had been berated by colleagues, and when challenged those colleagues cited Linus’ own language.
What Linus wants is working code, and you don’t get working code by giving tacit permission to your most aggressive & abrasive community members to attack others.
That’s why I was particularly clear about him being “not right”.
Because being abusive is definitely “not right”.
But sometimes you have to make a point and you just have no other way of doing so, because the deed is already done, and anything less shocking is just gonna get ignored wholesale. That foot-stomp has to be loud enough and clear enough to be heard even by the people in the back. And there are only so many (frequently limited!) ways of grabbing everyone’s attention by the nuts.
I don’t agree with how Linus handled it. But I can understand it.
sometimes you have to make a point and you just have no other way of doing so
Well, that’s just an excuse for bad leadership.
Well, that’s just an excuse for bad leadership.
You can’t be a leader to people who have no desire to follow you in the first place. And you can’t force anyone to accept you as a leader.
The world is not as black and white as you make it out to be. Sometimes you need to throw your weight around for the overall good of the community. It’s why law enforcement exists within every functional community - there will be people who intentionally ignore “leadership” and break rules for their own selfish purposes regardless of how good said leadership is, and the only thing that will make them behave is the threat of social censure or outright punishment.
And Linus has no ability to directly correct or punish, so social censure is the next best functional tool.
That’s not even his worst stuff. That seems pretty tame imo.
I mean, telling someone to kill themselves is something that I’ve heard a lot, it usually never means “go and literally do it”, it’s more of an expression… But the fact that it was used in that context is just disturbing.
Doesn’t mean it’s ever the right thing to say.
Especially among professionals
I remember telling someone to go kill themselves was a generic insult in school. Same as “fuck off”.
exactly. This was normal years ago, probably at the same time he used it. I’m not sure if kids are still saying these things in high school, but in the workplace this is 100% out of place.
I could write another rant on the whole American ‘I take offense with that’ mentality. It’s political correctness of the worst kind, and as far as I’m concerned. Jokes are often offensive. If you get offended, the problem is solidly at your end. Think about it for a while,…
He has a point there though IMO, things are way out if control with political correctness.
Have you noticed how almost every meme here on Lemmy goes in shitposts? My guess is, it’s a safe bet, almost anything goes there, so I won’t be downvoted to oblivion just because I wrote female instead of woman. Hell, I know I do it for that very reason.
While I mostly agree with you, don’t discount the insane volume of genuine hate speech in the United States. A vast amount of it –if not the majority– is coded language so there is an actual need to be extra sensitive. If you aren’t a member of a targeted minority, you won’t get it because the nature of coded hate speech is that it’s only transparent to the perpetrators and the victims.
I don’t live in the US, but from what I’ve seen, instead of everyone just taking a step back and not getting offended over stupid things, people do the exact opposite. I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it. Maybe I live in a place where people have thicker skin, IDK, but to get downvoted over semantics when the post is not even about that, I mean… really 🤨?
It doesn’t matter, I know, no one cares about up/down votes, but just the sheer ammount of it was “wow, really?”.
As I said, it’s different if you’re a member of a targeted minority.
I think the point is that to you, it’s just semantics. But, to use your example, given that some people have started intentionally using “female” in place of “woman” as an (arguably) subtle way to exclude trans women, it suddenly becomes more than semantics to both trans and anti-trans populations. That’s what Smotherlove is saying about “dog whistle” language only being transparent to the perpetrator and the victim.
So from your/my perspective (admittedly assuming you’re neither trans nor anti-trans), it’s largely a case of “a few rotten apples ruining it for the rest of the bunch.” What should just be a semantic difference has been coopted and intentionally weaponized by some, so all of us have to be conscious of whether or not we’re making that worse.
It’s also not a new phenomenon. Many epithets start as PC terms and then become offensive based on how a specific group starts to use them, notably, almost every one-time PC terms for Black Americans and people of color. Unfortunately, it’s basically the reason that, for at least 100 years, (responsible) individuals/media have had to change terms for many marginalized peoples every 10-20 years, with many other examples, like “Oriental” and the terms that predate it, and plenty of others.
Female is not just anti trans. It has also been used as a way of dehumanizing women for some time. It was in the 4chan playbook until they switched to femoid for extra dehumanizing.
Good to know, thank you! Yet more reasons to avoid it
I also referred to men as males in the post, but that didn’t seem to bother anyone.
Though I do admit female was a more used term. I was trying to explain some of the differences (to the best of my knowledge) of why males are more agressive and just generally not so in touch with their emotions, as opposed to females. I mean, come on, I wasn’t trying to offend anybody, but I do suppose that some people just saw “female, brain”, thought I was talking smack about women and just started downvoting me 🤷. I was trying to explain that that is not the context and that those 2 terms were just the first ones that popped up in my mind, but it was too late.
I get the likely reason why you don’t find it offensive, but I also get why plenty people do.
Note how the complains are usually towards the usage of “female” as a noun, not as an adjective. That’s because of a small quirk of English, that marks adjective nominalisation rather heavily. To show it with a non-offensive example:
- I got two cats. *The young is a tabby, and *the old is *a bicolour.
That likely sounds fine in the other language[s] that you speak (as it would do in my L1 and L2), but it sounds weird for English speakers - they’d expect “young”, “old” and “bicolour” to be followed by nouns, not to be treated as nouns.
As a result, when you “promote” an adjective to a noun, people usually take it as creating a category aside from whatever category the relevant entities were formerly assigned to. And if the former category was “human beings”, the nominalisation becomes dehumanising.
Another example [now offensive] to highlight this would be:
- “Alice is gay” - most people wouldn’t raise an eyebrow to that
- “Alice is a gay” - since the usage of article forces reading “gay” as a noun, it suddenly sounds dehumanising.
The same process actually does apply to “male”; the main difference is that men aren’t seen as a disfavoured group by society, and people often take that into account when judging the offensiveness of an utterance.
I also referred to men as males in the post, but that didn’t seem to bother anyone.
Because there’s no history of “males” being used in a derogatory way.
Ah, this happened two days ago? Further reading:
Linus Torvalds flames Google kernel contributor over filesystem suggestion
Here’s the specific response and it’s even better than anticipated.
https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04208.html
I love this part:
the next time I see you copying VFS functions (or any other core functions) without udnerstanding what the f*ck they do, and why they do it, I’m going to put you in my spam-filter for a week.
Like after all that he will just block him for a week 🤣 I would block them for a year minimum or forever…
I was just about to quote that same bit. We gotta report a murder.
His response to Linus was interesting to read.
Oh and especially this comment further down in the conversation…
As it is, I feel like I have to waste my time checking all your patches, and I’m saying “it’s not worth it”.
I’m basically done with this. I never said I was a VFS guy and I learned a lot doing this. I had really nobody to look at my code even though most of it went to the fsdevel list. Nobody said I was doing it wrong.
Sorry to have wasted your time
Sheesh. Seeing just how long he goes on tantruming is kinda surprising 😳 seems like the guy was just trying to contribute… ya don’t have you shit in mouth, right? Jesus
Thank you for validating my feelings here. I don’t know why we idolize this kind of behavior, but berating someone on a mailing list should not be acceptable, much less desirable.
For sure! Like I think criticism should be welcomed from a constructive standpoint, but there were some outright personal attacks in there! After reading the wiki page for Linus a coupla days ago my perspective is starting to shift a bit towards him 😅 woof
I live by the “there are no heroes” philosophy myself. You can like some of what a person does while admitting that they are still flawed like the rest of us.
Way too much of the tech industry culture is rooted in idol worship.
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Oh that’s fun.
flames
Now there’s a bit of internet slang I haven’t heard since vBulletin!
You should do one of these a day.
A whole calendar with classics such as:
Who the f*ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"
Damn, you know, that’s a pretty good idea, a callendar with Linus quotes 😂.
You could make the memes manually, or like a true programmer spend several hours if not days making a script that make them for you.
Yeah, I’ve seen the type… had a colleague in uni like that. And it’s not like he’s gonna need it for something else, but why spend an hour making them when he could spend 5 hours making the script to generate them in 1 second.
If this is how true programmers think, I’m sorry, I’m not a true programmer then 🤷.
I meant it as a joke, but the way I see it is as a “fast” and fun exercise where their’s no pressure and the only judge is yourself. It’s more about coding something for the fun of it.
I understand the logic, but this really seems like a complete waste of time. I’d rather spend that time coding something really useful than coding that.
It’s not a waste of time if you enjoyed making it. See it as like reading a book or watching a show.
When you have to do something once, do it manually, when you need to do it more often, script/code it.
Oh, and coding is much more fun then manual labour.
Depends for who… I also enjoy welding and woodworking. It’s not always about the end product, it’s about the journey.
And 12 times is not that much. I mean, it’s not like I’m gonna make another one next year.
That’s how engineers think in their free time.
When the specific goal is something I can do manually, and it’s not pressing, I would rather spend time learning how to make a tool to do it. I might not need the tool ever, I do use the knowledge picked up on those forays every day.
Aha… so that’s why my wife says “why you gotta always complicate things” 😂.
Not regarding coding in particular, I’m an electronics and telecommunications engineer, I do code a little though (here and there 😋), but regarding every day things, like maybe make something that will ease my life, yeah sure, I do that. But it has to be something I use frequently enough, otherwise, no I don’t see the point in spending the time and the energy to actually do it.
Different disciplines - different thresholds. But yeah, that’s exactly it.
With software engineering, the unknown space is vast, yet the tools are great. So it’s very easy to start tinkering and get lost in the process.
I’ve been guilty of this… I justify it in my head by saying:
it took me 5 hours to automate a 1-hr manual task, but hey, with this practice maybe next time I’ll get it done in 4 hours, then 3, and so on until I can do it in less time than the manual task would take.
That is true though, I agree. If I do see it as practice, then yes, I would do it regardless.
Honestly Id buy it
I’d pirate it and donate directly to the dev.
The Daily Torvalds
Agreed
Also, someone should make a dedicated community to Linus Torvalds quotes.
Not mine stole it.
I’ve made like… probably 50 or 60 memes, but they’re not that good.
The follow-up discussion was informative and the original commiter learned something. We all learned something when we read the discussion.
Like I really don’t know anything about kernel coding.
You know that you can make people very upset if you do it wrong. That’s something.
Yes, that much I know 😂.
And it’s completely fair to be honest, a lot of shit depend on that kernel and code. If nothing else, it’s not nice if you screw up.
Dude, the first aircraft to fly on a distant planet runs Linux.
You want to not crash, lest you … crash . And fixing it would be so hard, that it may as well be on Mars.
I’d be so happy if he was yelling at me directly
Notice me, senpai.
At least someone cares for me enough to yell at me, right… RIGHT!?
YOUR CODE IS SHIT AND YOU ARE SHIT
Omfg I love this guy
(laughs at that guy)
(Also secretly hoping I’m not next)
“we only criticize people we care about. If you’re messing up, and no one’s saying anything anymore, you’re in a bad spot”
– Randy Pausch, “Last Lecture”
“It is not what you say that matters but the manner in which you say it; there lies the secret of the ages.” - William Carlos Williams
To be honest, yes, this is very true. Politicans use this all the time… and I just hate it when they talk for like 30 minutes and basically say nothing.
Business people too. They have a way of speaking that kind of pacifies and exhausts you, so that by the time they’re finished speaking you’re confused and don’t really feel like arguing anymore
There is an ancient 1400 year-old Arabic saying that goes إن من البيان لسحرا “in eloquence there is magic” or “some eloquence is magical”. It is an ancient tactic.
Eloquence is such a good way to describe the magical nonsense words. Thanks for that cool tidbit of history
Simplicity and honesty are luxuries rarely possible nowadays
Mhm, would definitely agree. Things don’t have to be simple, I get that, but at least be honest about it, don’t beat around the bush.
Dang that’s so cool. I’m sure it’s a phenomenon we’ve all noticed, but this is the first time I’ve heard it named
“hurrr durrrr beaners!” – Carlos Mencia
That’s what I tell myself nearly every day.
I want this man along with Richard Stallman and the creator of Slackware to be immortal
Patrick Volkerding. It’s amazing he’s still managing his own Linux distro after all of these years. And I’m eternal grateful for him refusing to adopt systemd and pulseaudio when they were both not mature and stable enough and most other distros didn’t care.
Most users actually have enjoyed both systemd and pulseaudio for many years now. They are both some of the best technology we have in the Linux world.
Yes, they are mature and stable now. But they weren’t when they were first introduced into Ubuntu, for example.
pipewire is certainly much better than pulseaudio tho.
Yeah it’s even better, I agree. :)
[citation needed] on pulseaudio being among the best technology.
Always a pain, pulsesudio. Pipewire works better in my opinion
Has pulse ever reached mature or stable levels? Anyway, happy pipewire user now.
I love everything about Slackware except for the occasional weirdness and the absolute lack of package management from the distro itself (discounting third-party tools)
Meeh… Stallman, no, but Linus, yes, most definitely. I love his sense of humor to be honest, watch his AMAs from time to time, they’re like standup to me 😂.
My favorite anecdote about Stallman is how some women at MIT kept massive amounts of plants in their office to ward him off.
Lol 🤣, he doesn’t like plants? Didn’t know that 😂.
Both. Period.
Stallman has done more than anyone for free software. Just because you don’t like how he talks doesn’t take away the talent and the sheer will of the man. Linux should have never entertained snowflakes
I’m more opposed to what he eats
He has, no doubt there, but he’s completely unflexible. The FSF would be better off without him. Other than the GNU tools, there really isn’t much else that the FSF has done regarding free software. Like where are they now with the RH debacle. That thing is a dead on court case and they’re nowhere to be found.
I’d hate to think what other projects needed their legal help and they were hiding under or a rock or something.
Also, one of the main reasons why many projects nowadays are under MIT or BSD licenses is because of Stallman. The lingo he uses is sort of faschist. The only good license is the GPL license, nothing else. That’s no way to present something… anything really.
Stop idolizing people and especially stop idolizing RMS
You try achieving what they have achieved then
It’s possible to recognize technical brilliance while understanding that someone is a deeply flawed human in their personal life. I am appreciative of his contributions to the open source ecosystem while also recognizing there is a cult of personality built around an abusive egomaniac here.
Separately from RMS, idolizing anyone insulates them from criticism. In my opinion it’s elitism and socially unhealthy
Linux “Based” Torvalds
I literally just wrapped a web app I’ve been working on for a few months. I’m so proud of myself. I take a deserved break and see this.
I hate everybody.
lol 🤣🤣🤣
Linus needs to make no corrections to his behaviour. His apology was needless.
He only flames those who make dumb mistakes, should know better, keep doing it, and don’t respect the gravity of the situation. Linux is used on MARS. Pretend to care.
There is a pattern to the people who get upset when they’ve earned a rebuke from Linus. Those people could get over themselves.
Well, kind of.
Linus needs to call out bad code, it’s an important part of Linux’s quality control. He doesn’t need to tell people to kill themselves.
Also, humiliating someone in front of the whole LKML list by calling their code garbage isn’t constructive. It’s the reason why a lot of people take one look at that toxic cesspit and walk the other way.
Especially when people look at him talk like this and then emulate that. Thinking that it’s no big deal.
Yea anger issues is no joke
That happened in 2012 and a lot has changed with Linus since then.
This reply ^
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it stands for Mars (A Remote Satellite (of the sun))
MARS stands for WAR!
There is no problem with reusing code, as long as you take some time to understand it.
that is the i-didn’t-invent-linux way to put it
The only thing worse than code I don’t understand is code I do understand that’s literally been copied and pasted sixteen times in the same file.
Literally encapsulation, its the first fucking thing they teach you in Dev 101, my fucking god people please I’m begging you!
I went to school for actuarial sciences but im basically an overpaid python programmer. If an actual dev evee see my code, they would shot in the face for sure (at least my boss thinks im a magician because I do in half an hour in poorly optimized python code processes it took him days to do on excel). I don’t even know what encapsulation even means lmao.
Basically if you need the same logic in two places instead of copying it to the second place you make it into a function and use that function in both places.
That way if you need that logic to change you only need to make that edit once regardless of whether you use it one time or one thousand times.
I don’t even know what encapsulation even means lmao.
It’s basically a fancy way to reuse code.
Samir! You’re breaking the build!
‘Shut up’
Dev 101 is not followed in real life… Sadly, caring about code quality is difficult or impossible when you work with others.
Then you’re working with the wrong others.
I didn’t pick them. :)
Dude, you don’t have to be a dev to write code. There are many self-taught coders out there. I do agree that they should read a book or two regarding coding pracices, but hey, you don’t like it, rewrite it 🤷.
Me, personally, if someone else made it, I need it and I don’t have time to meddle (I usually don’t), I just use it. With all do respect, fuck coding practices, I got more important things in my life to worry about.
Meh, maintainability is king. Sticking to the letter of the style law is probably not necessary, but ignoring badly structured code now is going to bite you in the ass when it comes time to change any of it.
It’s like a metaphor for Linux itself
Are you allowed to make changes to the kernel? Sure, go ahead.
But FAFO applies. If you come at the king, you’d best not miss.
