Short Summary of the Community Drama of the Linux Distribution “NixOS”, so that you can get the big picture and form your own opinion with the provided sources.
Clarification of the “Steering Comittee” as Project Leadership
Moderation Team resigns in Protest
- Resignation Post, with examples of interference: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/a-statement-from-members-of-the-moderation-team/69828
- Conflict due different interests:
- the Moderation Team desires being independent. otherwise, they can’t moderate the behavior of people in positions of power.
- the Moderation Team is currently accountable to the Steering Comittee: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/a-statement-from-members-of-the-moderation-team/69828/6
Technical Leadership works for Military Company, causing Fear of Alignment with Facism.
- Steering Committee works for Military Company https://discourse.nixos.org/t/sc-member-tomberek-works-for-anduril/68971
- People in the community feel uncomfortable with that, since the US and its military are heading towards facsism: https://mstdn.games/@KFears/115275676459535171
- The Steering Committee made a public Post about that, explaining the Situation: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/statement-on-a-steering-committee-member-joining-anduril/69007
Good on the team for not aiding the genocidal American MIC.
I’ve been saying this for years: Just switch to Guix.
- An official GNU project;
- Herd instead of systemd;
- Uses Linux Libre and only 100% free software;
- Big, friendly, helpful community;
- Regular meetups, unconferences and other events;
- Config is done in an established language (Scheme) instead of an idiosyncratic DSL.
Yah 100% free no thanks. And I actually like systemd.
Also, a fraction of packages, users and guides.
I think Guix is great, but as a NixOS enthusiast who genuinely wanted to try it out, I gave up in the face of the lack of docs for people who aren’t working in lab or have a PhD in computing of some sort.
Also, how is shepherd better than systems? Genuinely curious.
Lastly, I agree Nix is not a very enjoyable language, but scheme doesn’t look like a very beginner friendly option either. Could be wrong, I’m not a programmer.
As someone who is curious about Nix but has given up after trying to wade through the myriad and conflicting “getting started” resources for it, I cant imagine how bad guix docs must be for a Nix enthusiast to adandon it.
If you are still trying to find the best guide, I recommend this one
That’s one the books I tried to get through. Maybe it was in a more raw state at the time, but it didn’t click for me.
Guix basically only has the official docs (which has a lot missing in my experience), a single Youtube channel (System Crafters), official issues/mailing list/IRC, System Crafters forum, the source code, toys.whereis.social, and rarely a blog post or random git repo that might have the information you need
Im honestly more interested in Nix, as even with all the chaos it feels like it has good technical momentum. I just wish there was something equivalent to Geerlings “Ansibles for devops” or Shotts “The linux command line” for it.
I’m pretty sure Guile isn’t pure functional either, while Nix is
Is it non-trivial to enable non-free repos?
https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix
Quite trivial
Never tried! But I’m assuming it’s a pain indeed. Not even Signal Desktop works out-of-the-box (or maybe at all, haven’t tried either) because of Electron.
That sounds like a pretty useless replacement for people who want a declarative configuration and a PC capable of doing anything other than contributing code to open source projects.
It seems to me like you didn’t do your homework before posting, since what you write is patently untrue. Guix is actually, primarily, a (very much functional/declarative) package manager which you can also install on top of other Linuces, even RHEL. Then there’s the Guix operating system, which is very much useful for many tasks other than developing free software.
no it isn’t, non-guix is right there and only one line in the right file
How do you do Flakes with Guix? That’s probably the most important feature Nix has.
Big, … helpful community
Not sure I would agree with that lol
whenever I asked about something in irc I got fairly swift and very helpful responses 🤷
I was trying to package Typst for them once. The IRC barely gave me any help, nor did the mailing list, so I had to guess a lot of things on my own. I ended up spending several hours working on it and fine tuning it to what the documentation wanted as much as I could. Then I finally made the submission, which was ignored for an entire year, before finally being rejected. It’s clear that the package repository has a severe lack of packages, but if there’s no clear way to contribute, then idk how anyone can take the project seriously.
I’ve also encountered bugs that made the tools unusable on my laptop that similarly got no response on IRC and the mailing lists.
Meanwhile on Nix, if I submit an issue on Nixpkgs, it will usually get resolved by the maintainer in 24 hours, or at most a week if it’s a larger change, and I don’t even have to do anything, and things aren’t constantly broken on aarch64.
I’ve considered it, but i like nix better than scheme, and i need non-free software and kernel, which is doable with non-guix but much more tedious with third party iso’s. I went back to Void linux but i still use nix + home manager, and the huge repo alone wins out for me.
I’ve been eyeing Guix for a while but haven’t jumped in yet. Honestly, I feel like I’m finally getting comfortable with nixos and flakes over the years. There’s quite a bit of un/relearning to do, and I can’t tell if the flow of Guix’s channels/inferiors would match the ease of composability that I like with flakes. The lock system really does it for me and I don’t like the idea of hunting down refs to pin manually or maintaining my own frankenstein repo (other than my config).
That said, I do use emacs and actually like lisp, so I’m torn right now.
I enjoy lisp and emacs but nothing will convince me to use guix over nixos. At most I guess I would switch to arch and use the guix package manager there.
And now DHH is getting involved in this shitshow. For those not chronically online enough, DHH is one of the developers of Rails, has a rap sheet of drama, and has his own dirty laundry full of racism, transphobia, and has managed to drive his own company into the shitter.
So really a bunch of winners are coming out of the woodwork for this one.
As a happy Debian user i’m not hearing any of it.
Sounds like interpersonal bullshit reframed as politics. Honestly impressed at the resignation letter being able to use so many words while avoiding actually directly explaining what they’re upset about. Of course it would take something really egregious and extraordinary for me to give a shit, because…
The steering committee or board of trustees or whatever should be sitting the rules for the organization, up to an including adding or removing mods from a forum if they want. That’s what they exist for. The idea that a mod team should be independent of the actual organizational structure of an institution is ridiculous.
The most ridiculous thing in the conversations I read was someone arguing that the fact that Anduril has a member at SC (Steering Committee) weakens their position. The mental gymnastic is so insane to me because it completely naively expect people who have a conflict of interest to do the right thing. What if they don’t ?
There is real smart fascists out there. they won’t kindly “recuse themselves” and weaken Anduril positions. Very suspicious that someone would argue that Anduril gets weaker at SC by having people there.
The most ridiculous thing in the conversations I read was someone arguing that the fact that Anduril has a member at SC (Steering Committee) weakens their position. The mental gymnastic is so insane to me because it completely naively expect people who have a conflict of interest to do the right thing. What if they don’t ?
The argument there was that they would be excluded of any votes related to said company.
It reads as an “honor” system rather than any objective exclusionary mechanism. Steering committee members are expected, and to their credit, were considered to have done so, but it all seems like judgement calls.
It is fully possible that grey areas or instances where other SC members didn’t personally care, were not met with recusal.
It would overall be better to not have those conflicts be likely or even possible.
Good thing Linux distros can be forked, so devs who might have a target on their backs can theoretically fork NixOS and run away with that.
Good thing Linux distros can be forked,
Distro isn’t the problem; The OS is already on a far too tight update schedule, fork away, but we need the package repository to remain sound and I don’t know what this would do to that.
Again???
Didn’t this exact situation, for this exact same reason happen last year already?From the last incident, there was Aux that wanted to create an alternative for the Nix ecosystem, but it died before it even started. Right now what we do have is Lix (what I’m currently using) and Tvix as an alternative for the Nix program, and Guix as an alternative ecosystem that’s nowhere near as complete.
My favorite part was a member of the SC talking about how the moderation team are the only ones who can appoint other moderators when two comments above a user was talking about being approached by a member of the SC the night before who was offering to make them a moderator.
I wonder if this conversation can even be had on this instance. Half the conversation is missing from the comments.
I’m not familiar with NixOS
However, short reminder that the internet was largely funded by the US military. It’s not uncommon that the US military brings significant developments for the internet. This is nothing new. The latest outcry is solely because the US is sliding into fascism, not because of the involvement with the US military.
I don’t think it’s solely for that reason. There are privacy concerns and concerns the os could be used for the MIC.
Can’t the MIC just use any existing Linux distro?
I am trying to understand what the injury here is?
Is it mostly about reputational damage from association? Kinda like why are we eating the same food as MIC and at the same table? Is there an injury here beyond this that I am not seeing?
Couldn’t the MIC shut down every FOSS project by declaring they love them and use them? I hope no FOSS dev is so simpleminded as to knee jerk like that.
We have to accept living in a dirty world with dirty people, to some extent. People we don’t like will use our favorite projects sometimes. That’s par for the course.
Where I would draw the line is implemeting some change into the distro that is either only or primarily useful for nefarious purposes, and is largely useless to 99% of normal/ethical use cases. Now THAT would be a real problem, and a real red line, imo.
The current political climate really is making people be stupid.
Endurance will determine who wins these battles.
The current political climate is really stupid making people unsure about what to do.
FTFY
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Can we avoid calling taking action against valid moral objections “drama”? It only serves to make the people doing the right thing sound like they’re being immature, even when they’re obviously right.
Objecting to a fascist government’s influence over very powerful build infrastructure used around the world is the right thing to do.
valid moral objections
That’s the thing, whether or not they’re valid depends on the person you’re asking.
I personally think this is a load of bullshit and just another instance of slacktivists trying to guilt people into doing their bidding.
Hopefully the leader in question doesn’t change a single thing due to this pressure. He would be a helpless child if he didn’t have the strength to resist this kind of peer pressure from online drama.
So…you don’t believe in democracy? That people involved, stakeholders, don’t have a right to influence the direction of an organized effort?
I mean yeah, if you ask a fascist how they feel about fascism, they probably don’t think it’s a big deal.
How is taking direct action to stigmatize someone who is enabling our fascist military “slacktivism”? What do you propose would be a more fitting and effective tactic for someone who doesn’t want their work associated in any way to the US military?
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These terms mean very specific things but because you don’t know what those things are you think I’m being vague and biased. You should probably just shut up.
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educate yourself instead of revelling in your own ignorance
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That’s the thing, whether or not they’re valid depends on the person you’re asking.
No it fucking doesn’t! There are people who think that, but they’re wrong.
Moral relativism is bullshit.
I’m sorry you and so many others are foolish enough to delude yourselves into thinking that.
The problem is, even if he was a good guy, he will get pressure from the racist regime if they want some changes. They could threaten his career of family, and so he complies
Why don’t we destigmatise drama?
Imagine if we referred to the recent UN walkout as “Drama at the UN.” It trivializes the topic.
Most people when they hear “drama” they think things like the brain dead hissy fits on reality TV. The kind of pointless fighting we should avoid. Destigmatizing the word would legitimatize that stuff.
We really need a better word for this posts topic where there’s very public back and forth but it’s a much more valid moral disagreement.
I think I’ve been on the internet longer than you, and drama has always applied to any kind of spat between parties.
Look at the youtube channel DramaAlert for countless examples.
“Listen kid, I’ve been on the internet much longer than you have. Back in my day we used to spin fidget spinners while watching LeafyIsHere videos and It’s The Nutshack memes during class instead of doing work. But you wouldn’t know nothin’ bout that, that’s ancient internet stuff right there”
It’s The Nutshack memes
Aah meme history memory flashbang
Yeah, I rest my case.
You had none to begin with.
You would say that because that’s how tribalism works.
Bunch of average people in here being average.
Probably for the best 🤣
i sincerely hope nixos utterly fails and their entire team shit their beds.
I can understand being hopeful for something greater taking it’s place post-collapse, but why wish a downfall for an entire team of humans that feel pain just as much as you and I?
If you feel pain while defecating, no matter if its on the loo or in bed, you probably should check it up. Pain is not a natural reaction to that activity
Steering Committee works for Military Company
It’s only one SC member, and they switched jobs after being elected last year. I think the Nix community is generally very much against US MIC, and unlikely to actually elect someone working for them. Although it was well-known that tomberek (and johnringer) are US-military-aligned.
After reading a bit more into the modteam situation, I have to say I’m on the mod team’s side here.
Yes. This is two distinct things lumped together in one post. I think the arms industry thing isn’t too bad, it’s only since August and the term ends soon, so people have an opportunity to vote for the right thing in a timely manner.
I think the arms industry thing is bad actually. Working for the US military in any way is bad already (and has been since the founding), but Anduril is even worse since it has almost explicitly fascist & pro-Trump leadership. I think people associating themselves with Anduril need to be kept far away from any position of power within the community. So yeah tomberek wasn’t on my ballot last year and won’t be the next.
It’s kind of a conversation classic amongst programmers. Would you work for the arms industry or a direct supplier? I wouldn’t unless someone finds a way to force me to. And the vast majority of people voice similar opinions. There’s a million valid concerns why it’s not ethical. I do however know one or two people who ended up working somewhere in that field. Or who bought stocks of defense companies and ultimately make profit with war.
Unfortunately “direct suppliers of the arms industry” covers like half of the IT industry. I’ve also avoided such companies but it’s surprisingly common.
Yeah, I don’t think there is an exact line to draw, maybe sometimes we need to be pragmatic. There’s a lot of dual use stuff and I mean they drive cars or use photocopiers, computer systems and eat as well, I guess just try to do your best?! But there’s some gradual decent from programming the buttons on the general’s microwave to delivering a missile guidance system to them. I’d say somewhere in between you’d switch to the “dark side”.
First things first: a simple search for “anduril nixos” shows that NixOS and Anduril Industries (defense technology) have been entangled for years.
So, pretty sure there’s plenty history & dissent here, but I never dived into it.
In detail this looks like just another community drama, but when you zoom out a different picture emerges: commercial interest, a will to silence dissent (and I will give them the benefit of the doubt that it isn’t for ideological reasons but simple worry about money). The Enshittification of a distro. With a military/fascist twist.
Here’s an interesting detail:
Unfortunately, the Constitution does not provide a meaningful recourse to SC overreach
So they have a flawed “constitution” which - judging by its name - should supersede the steering committee. It’s not like it’s really a constitution though, with all that would entail. It sounds more like, hm, “communitywashing” to me. Still, I wonder if they’re willing to take that colorful terminology one step further and make an amendment to said constitution.
So yeah, political bias and unilateral decisions.
I’ve always been leery of NixOS, and I mean since they started pushing it over a decade ago, always claiming it’s revolutionary better than $STANDARD_LINUX_DISTRO.
First things first: a simple search for “anduril nixos” shows that NixOS and Anduril Industries (defense technology) have been entangled for years.
It’s more like Anduril using Nix{OS} and trying to insert themselves into the community. There’s been a lot of opposition to that, including an open letter and maintainers quitting; this was a big part of the reason for Steering Committee formation in the first place. The SC has since voted on some based things, like banning Anduril from job posting on community forums and sponsoring conferences. I was hoping they would just ban any mention of Anduril anywhere, but that’s going too far for them unforutenately; and banning technical contributions wouldn’t make sense.
An SC member joining Anduril (after being elected, not before, mind you) is really bad, but I bet they will lose their seat in a month’s time when there’s a new election. The community is mostly antifascist and thus anti-MIC. It’s like one of the most leftist technical communities I’ve seen, perhaps more so than Rust.
It’s like one of the most leftist technical communities I’ve seen, perhaps more so than Rust
Rust is on the left? That’s (cough) GNUs to me ;).
Rust is the gayest programming language
How so? I feel like if we’re making jokes based on the language itself it would be more like the “straightest” language because of how strict it’s type system is. It seems like a sort of “there are two genders” sort of thing. Rust seems like the homophobic language.
(And to be clear, this is just a joke based on the language, not a commentary on the Rust community.)
Rust is socially vaguely on the left/progressive side, yes. Not so much economically of course, because of all the corporate involvement.
GNU has some right-wing libertarian culture in it, but is also vaguely leftist and anti-corporate otherwise. I would actually say Rust is slightly more progressive than GNU on social issues, but not by much; and GNU is more anti-corporate, but also not by much.
I know there some other more certainly leftist FOSS projects out there (like the one we’re chatting on right now 😉) but overall Nix is pretty good on that front.
