Ukrainian commanders and soldiers say some new troops refuse to fire at the enemy. Others struggle to assemble weapons or to coordinate basic combat movements.

Some new Ukrainian soldiers refuse to fire at the enemy. Others, according to commanders and fellow fighters, struggle to assemble weapons or to coordinate basic combat movements. A few have even walked away from their posts, abandoning the battlefield altogether.

While Ukraine presses on with its incursion into Russia’s Kursk region, its troops are still losing precious ground along the country’s eastern front — a grim erosion that military commanders blame in part on poorly trained recruits drawn from a recent mobilization drive, as well as Russia’s clear superiority in ammunition and air power.

“Some people don’t want to shoot. They see the enemy in the firing position in trenches but don’t open fire. … That is why our men are dying,” said a frustrated battalion commander in Ukraine’s 47th Brigade. “When they don’t use the weapon, they are ineffective.”

Commanders say the recruits have contributed to a string of territorial losses that enabled Russia’s army to advance, including near the city of Pokrovsk, a critical logistics hub. If it falls, the defeat would imperil Ukraine’s defenses and bring Russia closer to its stated aim of capturing the Donetsk region. Russian soldiers are now just 10 kilometers (6.2 miles) away.

  • einkorn@feddit.orgEnglish
    555·
    3 months ago

    I understand people being reluctant to kill others unless absolutely necessary. One reason why I will never work in the defense industry is that here is no way for me to be certain that my work will only ever be used in self-defense.

    But in this case? Bucha, attacks on hospitals and abduction of children? What else do these people need to understand what the consequences of not fighting are?

    I’d love to see a world where war is a thing of the past, but until then it is necessary and in my opinion even morally required to take up arms and defend those who can not fight.

    • makeshiftreaper@lemmy.worldEnglish
      28·
      3 months ago

      There are just some people out there who despite having every moral reason to do so, can’t get themselves to kill another person. I don’t necessarily think those people should be shamed. Especially because they are trying to defend their home and it may have taken getting to the front lines before they realized that they just aren’t capable of doing it

      • einkorn@feddit.orgEnglish
        131·
        3 months ago

        I do not think they should be either and my comment stems not from disdain. But sitting in a trench with the enemy converging on your position is not the place to ponder moral dilemma.

        On the other hand I just read on Wikipedia that objection to military service on moral grounds is near impossible in Ukraine. This of course puts these people doubly in a position they should not be chastised for.

        I imagne that there is ample room for drafted to be assigned to essential noncombat rolles in and outside the military. So a compromise should be possible: Force people into the war effort but not by handing them a weapon.

        • foofiepie@lemmy.worldEnglish
          9·
          3 months ago

          I agree with you but UKR may not have the luxury of triaging a bunch of people into non combat roles, and with regard to reaction under fire, I don’t think anyone really knows how they’re going to react in that situation until they’re in it. Even volunteers.

          I’m not and never have been military, just my £0.02.

          • einkorn@feddit.orgEnglish
            8·
            3 months ago

            UKR may not have the luxury of triaging a bunch of people into non combat roles

            I don’t think it’s a luxury but a necessity. A soldier having an utter mental breakdown may become a thread to his own comrades. Of course, there is a difference between people being unable and people being unwilling to fight.

            I don’t think anyone really knows how they’re going to react in that situation until they’re in it

            It’s one of those rare, unknowable situations. One of my colleagues at university was an ex-soldier. He said he’s seen hulks of men break down after their first combat situation, and unlikely people taking charge in dangerous situations.

        • dustycups@aussie.zoneEnglish
          82·
          3 months ago

          The level of discussion in this thread is so refreshing to see.

          I’m so tired of seeing people just shouting at each other. That and the bots.

      • superkret@feddit.orgEnglish
        11·
        3 months ago

        There are just some people out there who despite having every moral reason to do so, can’t get themselves to kill another person.

        The vast majority, according to research, even when it’s literally “kill or be killed”. Most people really do not want to kill other people.
        You can get them to kill through rigorous drills that automate a soldier’s reaction, so opening fire in the right situation becomes almost like a reflex. But that takes time, and Ukraine didn’t have enough of that for enough soldiers.
        This has been a “problem” for commanders in all wars throughout history. Personally, it’s a fact that restores my faith in humanity.

    • homura1650@lemmy.worldEnglish
      13·
      3 months ago

      When you are looking at someone down the scope of a gun, you do not see a kidnapper, or a mudered. You see a person. That is not a moral judgment. It is a deep instinctual inpulse we have, enhanced by a lifetime of socialization, against killing people. Half of the point of military training is getting people to overcome tharmt base instinct.

      As the commanders say, these soldiers have not had adequate training.

  • NIB@lemmy.worldEnglish
    34·
    3 months ago

    Because Kursk wasnt an active combat zone and it is part of Russia, most of the military there was conscripts, ie random kids from all over Russia but mostly cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg.

  • JohnBrownII@lemmy.worldEnglish
    725·
    3 months ago

    Its almost like kidnapping people off the streets to conscript them is bad tactically and strategically

    • RubberDuck@lemmy.worldEnglish
      174·
      3 months ago

      These types of comments are wanted and encouraged on hexbear and lemmy(grad).ml not here. Please refrain from spouting Russian propaganda Here.

        • RubberDuck@lemmy.worldEnglish
          81·
          3 months ago

          Because you are pushing a narrative that the Ukranians find this normal and it is common. After this came out there was a purge of the recruitment staff and zelensky called the corruption treasonous.

          Further, draft dodging in time of war is a crime for which you can be arrested.

          • JohnBrownII@lemmy.worldEnglish
            112·
            3 months ago

            Then why aren’t they allowed to serve prison time, why are so many “detainees” ending up dead on the frontlines?

            • RubberDuck@lemmy.worldEnglish
              71·
              3 months ago

              Got a sauce for those accusations… as I’m genuinely curious. I keep pretty informed and missed this …maybe.

              • JohnBrownII@lemmy.worldEnglish
                213·
                3 months ago

                Do… do you think no Ukrainians have died? Like genuinely. They get detained for dodging the draft and are then SENT TO THE FRONTLINES. Do you seriously need a Ukrainian reporter explicitly stating that verbatim to understand how conscription works???

                • RubberDuck@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  3·
                  3 months ago

                  So what do you suggest? Ukranians just concede all land to the murderous Russian hordes only to be genocided then? It’s not as if there are any alternatives to fighting for Ukraine. Better they do it on Russian land.

    • WanderingVentra@lemm.eeEnglish
      51·
      3 months ago

      While in a perfect world I agree, what else are they going to do? They’re running out of people and are desperate for soldiers. Hopefully they can parlay their gained territory in Russia for some good concessions in the negotiations.