• philosloppy@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    26
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    edit-2
    20 hours ago

    the problem is that he was wrong; Empathy is a good thing. You are embodying his shitty ideology by not having empathy. That doesn’t mean you gotta suddenly like the guy or not call out his shitty ideology, but don’t let yourself get dragged down into the septic tank and get covered in the shit.

    I’ll gladly die on this hill, get at me nerds

    • JaymesRS@piefed.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      17 hours ago

      Some people say empathy, tolerance, & inclusion are strictly moral values. However this misses that they are also a social contract lest we end up in the paradox of tolerance.

      Kirk had none for those outside his in-group. Those outside his in-group owe him none in return.

      • philosloppy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        41 minutes ago

        How, exactly, does having empathy lead to toleration of unempathetic ideologies like fascism? It logically would make us even more averse to those kinds of ideas. Dare I say, a dearth of empathy on a societal level leads directly to those places.

        What a reductive and unnuanced view of the world. I sure hope you are not representative of the rest of the population or we are even more fucked than I thought.

        • JaymesRS@piefed.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          3 minutes ago

          When one group proclaims the sadness of tragedy of a great harm upon a member of an intolerant group and the intolerant group refuses or even celebrates that same sort of great harm against the other that normalizes the one sidedness of that for that society. Calls for reciprocity become decried as politicization

      • iii@mander.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        16 hours ago

        You’re arguing for parochial empathy over real empathy.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          13 hours ago

          He was a force for evil in this world.

          Have empathy instead for the victims of the policies he advocated.

          • iii@mander.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            13 hours ago

            Have empathy instead

            It might be surprising, but it’s not a limited resource that needs to be spend sparcely. You do not need to make the world worse for those in an other tribe in order to make it better for your own tribe. That false dichotomy - which you and him probably share - is the root of a lot of evil in this world.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              13 hours ago

              It’s not surprising at all to see the people who spent an entire year advocating for genocide also having empathy for a dead nazi.

        • JaymesRS@piefed.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          15 hours ago

          Exactly the opposite. We should have empathy, tolerance, and inclusiveness for all, unless people choose to exclude themselves from that collective. I’m saying those who only have parochial empathy shouldn’t expect to receive empathy from others they’ve already cut themselves off from, and it’s not something those they shut out to be shamed for that they experienced the repercussions of their actions.

          • iii@mander.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            edit-2
            15 hours ago

            You are describing parochial empathy, with the caveat that somehow you think it’s different when you do it.

            • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              13 hours ago

              You are describing parochial empathy, with the caveat that somehow you think it’s different when you do it.

              No parochial empathy is when an in-group only has empathy for the in-group and none for any out-groups.

              The resolution to the paradox of tolerance does not require individuals in a group to only experience empathy for other individuals in their group.

              Instead members of groups that adhere to the social contract or peace treaty of tolerance all feel empathy for each other.

              Only when an individual, individuals, or a group of people break the social contract or peace treaty are they no longer protected by it. Every individual in the groups still being tolerant still feel empathy for each other across group lines.

              This is so the groups that practice tolerance can defend themselves from a group that has chosen to be intolerant. Such as the Nazis killing minority groups in WWII.

              • iii@mander.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                13 hours ago

                or a group of people break the social contract

                That’s what most here are doing. Should everyone in this group who celebrates breaking of the social contract be fair game for reprisal? You see the issue with this parochial approach to empathy?

                • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  12 hours ago

                  You see the issue with this parochial approach to empathy?

                  Tolerant people in groups whether that is by race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or gender are still feeling empathy for tolerant people outside their groups. So people practicing tolerance as a peace treaty are still practicing empathy not parochial empathy.

                  Do you see the problem with using a straw man to argue? Refuting your argument is trivial.

                  That’s what most here are doing.

                  Considering this acts in accordance with self-preservation this is a rational and useful decision to have made.

                  Should everyone in this group who celebrates breaking of the social contract be fair game for reprisal?

                  Charlie Kirk and the other fascists he was a mouth piece for have already broken the social contract with their fascist takeover of the United States. This fascists administration goal is to around up minority groups into death camps and a pollute the planet as much as possible with coal powered ‘freedom cities’. The fascist chose to break the peace treaty and so they are no longer protected by it.

                  The intolerant group has already decided those being tolerant are fair game before this. The fascists already wanted to kill people. We knew this before the election. They were completely open with what they wanted to do. Now tolerant people have to work together with people outside their groups to defend themselves against intolerant fascists. This is a clear cut example of real empathy.

                  • iii@mander.xyz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    12 hours ago

                    are still feeling empathy for tolerant people outside their groups

                    Apparently they are not, as exemplified by celebration of violence here, and the dislike for those arguing against violence. They feel empathy for the intolerant only, and dislike the emphatic.

                    The fascist chose to break the peace treaty and so they are no longer protected by it.

                    Neither are the people celebrating here, according to this logic. See the issue?

                    Now tolerant people have to work together with people outside their groups

                    Exactly, they should! What they’re doing instead is using violence on people outside their in-group - the self-proclaimed tolerant are the intolerant just of a different tribe.

                    They’re them, we’re we, we’re better is what you’re describing and is parochial empathy.

    • pahlimur@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      24
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      20 hours ago

      I choose not to have empathy for those who wouldn’t have empathy for me in the same situation. He openly mocked people who die to gun violence, so no sympathy from me. I lean towards enjoying that he is gone. The line for me is killing is bad, but I’m glad he’s dead.