Or it shows that when you are truly awful, racist, homophobic, transphobic, idiots, your children move away from you to the cities where they don’t have to talk or interact with you, which concentrates the intelligent and worthwhile portion of the population into blue centers that aren’t evenly distributed across the electoral college?
Which is generally true, but he also won the popular vote. That’s an indication that being awful is less important to most voters than being entertaining. The lesson I see here is Dems need to focus more on engaging rhetoric than silly trivialities like “competence” and “beneficial policy”
Trump’s narrative, despite being just a makeover of the political establishment, is that he’s anti-establishment. Democrats are just nakedly the political establishment with clown makeup pretending to be “progressive”. Trump’s message resonated with his audience, the Democrats’ message didn’t. Both of them are genocidal maniacs that are using nuclear weapons to hold the entire world hostage. Let’s keep our eyes on the target here.
He isn’t anti-establishment though, except that he’s more concerned with self aggrandizement than practical policy. Democrats are establishment that occasionally align with voter needs, Trump is 100% aligned with his own needs, which occasionally defy the establishment when there’s a conflict with his interests.
Again, this comes down to messaging, i.e. rhetoric. Not in content, but in vibes. The Democrats need to pay more attention to vibes, rhetoric, than content. You’re just repeating what I said with different words.
He’s not, but that’s his brand. And one of the few things he’s good at is selling his brand.
What you’ve got is a bunch of people fed up with the system in some pretty fundamental ways, many of which don’t even know how to voice their problems accurately. One side sells itself as anti-establishment (even though it’s not) and the other side is nakedly as establishment as can be (to the point that they’ll ratfuck primaries against anyone who rocks the boat even a little) but is very vocally progressive when they don’t have to actually do anything about it or when doing so won’t rock the boat even a little.
So you’re content with democrats just lying to get elected instead of making material changes in their policy that make people want to vote for them? You want them to be the better option than Republicans… by acting like Republicans, with the exact same policy, but it’s a woman or a POC doing the policy??
with the exact same policy, but it’s a woman or a POC doing the policy
That’s just objectively false. No, their policy isn’t good enough, but to pretend that it’s exactly the same is disingenuous.
The Democrats are always going to be controlled opposition, I just care about them beating MAGA long enough to develop an alternative that can actually replace them. I don’t vote for representation, the ones who represent me don’t have enough support to win yet. I’m voting for the easier-to-defeat enemy.
I don’t vote for representation, the ones who represent me don’t have enough support to win yet.
This is so self defeating. If every person that said this just voted their beliefs instead of spreading this ideology like a cancer, if the Democrats even have a party left after that, you would be able to use your bloc to pressure them into being everything you say they are.
They said the same shit when Bernie ran in the primaries “oh, he’s too old, he’s not electable!!” until they realized that Bernie was too popular and just rat fucked the primary instead. He wasn’t even running on the date of the primary and he still got half the votes that Biden did!!
You realize there are republicans that think this way too? It doesn’t only benefit democrats. Not all Republicans are fully behind Trump, but they’ll be damned if they vote for a democrat.
Parties win when people vote for them. That includes you. Stop spreading this self defeating, voter shaming ideology just to fucking lose elections because the democratic platform is hollow ineffective bullshit that the dems served up knowing you’ll fucking vote for it anyways.
They are not easier to defeat or someone would have done it in the last 40 years. They are sloppy and old but don’t think that it makes them any easier especially when they aim to represent the Status Quo.
I am not repeating what you said, we have fundamentally different understandings of this system. Trump and Biden are both puppets of an imperial machine. You are trying to play strategist for the Democrats, my interest is in ending the machine. You are under the illusion that Trump emerged out of left field and is operating of his own accord, I am aware that he’s just a slight rebranding of establishment policy made to look like some kind of wildcard.
Your understanding of my point is incorrect. I am under no such illusion. Your interest in “ending the machine” lacks praxis to accomplish that goal. My interest is in Democratic strategy only insofar that it is a stopgap solution to that very same goal. I have no interest in equivocating liberals and fascists. Certainly, the one begets the other, in the same way a tiger cub will become an adult tiger, but I am more confident in our ability to overcome a cub than an adult tiger.
I seek Democratic victory only insofar that I do not see a mature threat to the establishment, and I seek an establishment party which is easier to subvert in the meantime, while meaningful praxis matures. Slow descent into fascism is preferable to accelerated descent into fascism, because I do not believe that accelerationism is in the interest of the people. The risk of enduring fascism is too high.
Now kiss. We’re all on the same side here. Left infighting is what has doomed us all. Yes Trump is a disgusting capitalist bigot piece of shit, but that’s what the American people want. They may be too fucking dumb but they want the system to change and Trump is offering to flip the whole table.
Stop fucking fighting and let’s figure out what to do.
Once again, focus on rhetoric. The people want a compelling narrative. All the policy in the world means nothing if the people aren’t buying. The people are dumb, they want entertaining stories. Give them what they want, instead of convincing them they should want something else.
The democrats and their stupid supporters suck all the air out of the room and frustrate real leftist change. They waste everyone’s time and energy on electoralism only to back stab their supporters. Fuck them. Let’s kill the democrat party once and for all they deserve to no longer be a political party after this election loss. They lost on purpose in service to capital. Liberals can’t get that through their thick fucking heads.
DEMOCRATS WOULD RATHER LOSE TO FASCISTS THAN APPEASE THE LEFT.
Repeat that a million times until it sinks through. They are a waste of time.
Let’s kill the democrat party once and for all they deserve to no longer be a political party
Maybe we should focus on killing the MAGA party first tho. What possible benefit is there in going from “bad party vs worse party” to “worse party vs countless splintered leftist factions”? Your order of operations is all wrong, if we’re going to kill a party, let’s focus on the actively fascist one first.
You don’t topple electoralism overnight, we need a functional alternative first. Otherwise you’re just handing control over to the fascists. Uncoordinated discontent isn’t going to cut it. We need actual organization with an actual plan of action. The time and energy “wasted” on electoralism is miniscule, there’s plenty available to back alternatives once a workable alternative is actually presented. Present it.
The dems need to give us universal healthcare and education and stop the wars. They won’t do any of the above except admonish and shame voters for voting wrong. Fuck them and fuck their braindead supporters.
The last time Democrats held the House, Senate supermajority, and the Presidency for a total of 73 days in 2009 and we got Obamacare. Then the Republicans spent the next decade doing everything they could to tear it down.
In 2020 Trump won 74.2 million votes compared to 75 million in 2024. Meanwhile Democrats got around 7 million fewer votes. The lost to voter apathy, not to Trump. That apathy was fed by propaganda.
It’s not. My family is anti-trump, and mostly harmless these days.
But blaming the democrats for the people who voted republican is a stupid online trick that both sidesers like to use.
The fact is, if the democrats were “more in touch with this country” they’d all act like Trump. That’s what this country wants. That’s what this country deserves.
I had a different approach going in, voting for Harris to avoid this situation.
But now after the fact, I might still prefer incremental improvement rather than burning it down and starting over, but the latter literally seems more plausible now. Incremental changes are going full speed in the wrong direction now. The capitalists are currently on a sharp upward trajectory, not going down.
I keep coming back to the vote counts though. Trump got the second highest ever vote count for president in 2024. The only person who ever got more was Biden at the end of Trump’s disastrous first term.
If this country has the “opportunity” to rebuild in the wake of Trump 2.0, I don’t just worry but expect that a huge part of our culture will want it to be more libertarian and probably even more Christian from the ground up. I do not know my fellow Americans to say sensible things like “why can’t we be more like Europe?”
Yeah your best chance at incrementalism was probably going to be less voter shaming (since the dems lost anyways) and getting out the vote for third parties. Not to get them elected, but to pressure and signal to the Democrats just how far the country is to the left of them and what motivates us to vote. If nothing else, a party gets federal funding at 5% of the national vote, which might have been achievable, again, if we were less focused on carrying democrats’ dead weight over the finish line.
Turns out, you tell people their third party vote is worthless, they rather stay home than vote for something that goes against their values. The absolute least we can do is get hard data on what their values are.
That’s okay, many of us that don’t believe in electoralism are instead getting organized in order to make change in our communities and to be ready when the two big parties fall. Try seeing if there’s a PSL or FRSO chapter in your area, or head out to a protest on Jan 20 and keep an eye out for orgs you might join. Orgs like this have given me a lot of hope for the future :)
Or you play all your hands you have until you have a winning one. And don’t hold out for a lucky draw that you get enough people to agree to do that specific thing.
You aren’t incorrect about being a willful participant but you end up it either way, willingly or unwilling. At least you don’t end up waiting for an Ace that your opponent might be holding onto that you never get it.
You are just in the desire to be violent. To get out what you think you are owed to dish out on others. But it’s not actually a plan or productive cause what happens next? Hmm? Keep killing until it’s all fixed? Bonkers.
But now after the fact, I might still prefer incremental improvement rather than burning it down and starting over, but the latter literally seems more plausible now. Incremental changes are going full speed in the wrong direction now. The capitalists are currently on a sharp upward trajectory, not going down.
I keep coming back to the vote counts though. Trump got the second highest ever vote count for president in 2024. The only person who ever got more was Biden at the end of Trump’s disastrous first term.
I’m glad you’re going through a wake up call. Btw re Biden’s 2020 election, he would of never had that support had covid not happened and the BLM protests not happened. Both events fired up the base, and trumps covid response didn’t help things. If it was just another election, say 2004 but biden was on the ticket instead of Kerry, he would of lost.
The capitalists are consolidating power quickly and there’s no one in power to stop them. But there’s a lot more of us than there are of them, and look at how they’re throwing the book at Luigi with trumped up charges because he killed one person who just happened to be important to the ruling class. Nobody else who murders one person gets hit with charges to that level. We need more actions like that, we need to actually threaten them.
Unfortunately I think the biggest part of my ongoing wake up call is not the need for radical change, but that my disillusionment with the American people got even worse. I can only hope that a very large amount of Trump’s support is from ignorance, because there’s definitely a lot of enthusiastic informed support of him too.
But there’s a lot more of us than there are of them
I want to believe. I know there are more decent caring people than billionaire capitalists, but are there more decent caring people than the capitalists PLUS their boot lickers PLUS their useful idiots? And with the momentum going in the wrong direction?
In total it seems like we are much more likely to be rescued by a small platoon of extremely motivated and self-sacrificing Luigis, rather than our society at large actually wanting to fix itself.
I am so glad I left this bubble for a spell, because it’s fun to come back and see all the great new propaganda tactics being floated. Blue maga is hilariously internet! Love that for you.
Anywho, blaming the dems for trump winning, and ignoring all the people who voted for him is not coping, but pointing out that cities are liberal havens is?
I guess I’ll get back to focusing on my job instead of lemmy nonsense, because this place has always been completely unreasonably biased nonsense. My job is in a blue state whose taxes pay for the welfare of the rest of this shithole of a country, after all, so if I don’t do it, those trump supporters can’t buy his merch!
Or it shows that when you are truly awful, racist, homophobic, transphobic, idiots, your children move away from you to the cities where they don’t have to talk or interact with you, which concentrates the intelligent and worthwhile portion of the population into blue centers that aren’t evenly distributed across the electoral college?
Which is generally true, but he also won the popular vote. That’s an indication that being awful is less important to most voters than being entertaining. The lesson I see here is Dems need to focus more on engaging rhetoric than silly trivialities like “competence” and “beneficial policy”
Trump’s narrative, despite being just a makeover of the political establishment, is that he’s anti-establishment. Democrats are just nakedly the political establishment with clown makeup pretending to be “progressive”. Trump’s message resonated with his audience, the Democrats’ message didn’t. Both of them are genocidal maniacs that are using nuclear weapons to hold the entire world hostage. Let’s keep our eyes on the target here.
He isn’t anti-establishment though, except that he’s more concerned with self aggrandizement than practical policy. Democrats are establishment that occasionally align with voter needs, Trump is 100% aligned with his own needs, which occasionally defy the establishment when there’s a conflict with his interests.
Again, this comes down to messaging, i.e. rhetoric. Not in content, but in vibes. The Democrats need to pay more attention to vibes, rhetoric, than content. You’re just repeating what I said with different words.
He’s not, but that’s his brand. And one of the few things he’s good at is selling his brand.
What you’ve got is a bunch of people fed up with the system in some pretty fundamental ways, many of which don’t even know how to voice their problems accurately. One side sells itself as anti-establishment (even though it’s not) and the other side is nakedly as establishment as can be (to the point that they’ll ratfuck primaries against anyone who rocks the boat even a little) but is very vocally progressive when they don’t have to actually do anything about it or when doing so won’t rock the boat even a little.
Correct, because, again, they are better at rhetoric/messaging/branding. Again, that’s what we need to be doing.
So you’re content with democrats just lying to get elected instead of making material changes in their policy that make people want to vote for them? You want them to be the better option than Republicans… by acting like Republicans, with the exact same policy, but it’s a woman or a POC doing the policy??
That’s just objectively false. No, their policy isn’t good enough, but to pretend that it’s exactly the same is disingenuous.
The Democrats are always going to be controlled opposition, I just care about them beating MAGA long enough to develop an alternative that can actually replace them. I don’t vote for representation, the ones who represent me don’t have enough support to win yet. I’m voting for the easier-to-defeat enemy.
This is so self defeating. If every person that said this just voted their beliefs instead of spreading this ideology like a cancer, if the Democrats even have a party left after that, you would be able to use your bloc to pressure them into being everything you say they are.
They said the same shit when Bernie ran in the primaries “oh, he’s too old, he’s not electable!!” until they realized that Bernie was too popular and just rat fucked the primary instead. He wasn’t even running on the date of the primary and he still got half the votes that Biden did!!
You realize there are republicans that think this way too? It doesn’t only benefit democrats. Not all Republicans are fully behind Trump, but they’ll be damned if they vote for a democrat.
Parties win when people vote for them. That includes you. Stop spreading this self defeating, voter shaming ideology just to fucking lose elections because the democratic platform is hollow ineffective bullshit that the dems served up knowing you’ll fucking vote for it anyways.
They are not easier to defeat or someone would have done it in the last 40 years. They are sloppy and old but don’t think that it makes them any easier especially when they aim to represent the Status Quo.
I am not repeating what you said, we have fundamentally different understandings of this system. Trump and Biden are both puppets of an imperial machine. You are trying to play strategist for the Democrats, my interest is in ending the machine. You are under the illusion that Trump emerged out of left field and is operating of his own accord, I am aware that he’s just a slight rebranding of establishment policy made to look like some kind of wildcard.
Your understanding of my point is incorrect. I am under no such illusion. Your interest in “ending the machine” lacks praxis to accomplish that goal. My interest is in Democratic strategy only insofar that it is a stopgap solution to that very same goal. I have no interest in equivocating liberals and fascists. Certainly, the one begets the other, in the same way a tiger cub will become an adult tiger, but I am more confident in our ability to overcome a cub than an adult tiger.
I seek Democratic victory only insofar that I do not see a mature threat to the establishment, and I seek an establishment party which is easier to subvert in the meantime, while meaningful praxis matures. Slow descent into fascism is preferable to accelerated descent into fascism, because I do not believe that accelerationism is in the interest of the people. The risk of enduring fascism is too high.
Now kiss. We’re all on the same side here. Left infighting is what has doomed us all. Yes Trump is a disgusting capitalist bigot piece of shit, but that’s what the American people want. They may be too fucking dumb but they want the system to change and Trump is offering to flip the whole table.
Stop fucking fighting and let’s figure out what to do.
Once again, focus on rhetoric. The people want a compelling narrative. All the policy in the world means nothing if the people aren’t buying. The people are dumb, they want entertaining stories. Give them what they want, instead of convincing them they should want something else.
Is a fucking fist in the air and the rifle in the other attractive enough yet?
The democrats and their stupid supporters suck all the air out of the room and frustrate real leftist change. They waste everyone’s time and energy on electoralism only to back stab their supporters. Fuck them. Let’s kill the democrat party once and for all they deserve to no longer be a political party after this election loss. They lost on purpose in service to capital. Liberals can’t get that through their thick fucking heads.
DEMOCRATS WOULD RATHER LOSE TO FASCISTS THAN APPEASE THE LEFT.
Repeat that a million times until it sinks through. They are a waste of time.
Maybe we should focus on killing the MAGA party first tho. What possible benefit is there in going from “bad party vs worse party” to “worse party vs countless splintered leftist factions”? Your order of operations is all wrong, if we’re going to kill a party, let’s focus on the actively fascist one first.
You don’t topple electoralism overnight, we need a functional alternative first. Otherwise you’re just handing control over to the fascists. Uncoordinated discontent isn’t going to cut it. We need actual organization with an actual plan of action. The time and energy “wasted” on electoralism is miniscule, there’s plenty available to back alternatives once a workable alternative is actually presented. Present it.
We need to get one or both of the two major parties to move to the left from their current position.
Neither seems interested.
They won’t, capitalism itself needs to be overthrown. They’re both the party of capitalism.
The dems need to give us universal healthcare and education and stop the wars. They won’t do any of the above except admonish and shame voters for voting wrong. Fuck them and fuck their braindead supporters.
The last time Democrats held the House, Senate supermajority, and the Presidency for a total of 73 days in 2009 and we got Obamacare. Then the Republicans spent the next decade doing everything they could to tear it down.
In 2020 Trump won 74.2 million votes compared to 75 million in 2024. Meanwhile Democrats got around 7 million fewer votes. The lost to voter apathy, not to Trump. That apathy was fed by propaganda.
So this feels personal to you and I’m sorry you have issues with your family. It sucks but they are not everyone.
It’s not. My family is anti-trump, and mostly harmless these days.
But blaming the democrats for the people who voted republican is a stupid online trick that both sidesers like to use.
The fact is, if the democrats were “more in touch with this country” they’d all act like Trump. That’s what this country wants. That’s what this country deserves.
Wow.
That’s a heck of a response and I don’t want to legitimize pretty much any of it so…
Okie dokie then.
Now you’re roughly getting how I felt reading the comment from OP!
No. I am seeing a lot more anger about simple truths than I am feeling.
I don’t feel what you feel and I am alright with that.
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I had a different approach going in, voting for Harris to avoid this situation.
But now after the fact, I might still prefer incremental improvement rather than burning it down and starting over, but the latter literally seems more plausible now. Incremental changes are going full speed in the wrong direction now. The capitalists are currently on a sharp upward trajectory, not going down.
I keep coming back to the vote counts though. Trump got the second highest ever vote count for president in 2024. The only person who ever got more was Biden at the end of Trump’s disastrous first term.
If this country has the “opportunity” to rebuild in the wake of Trump 2.0, I don’t just worry but expect that a huge part of our culture will want it to be more libertarian and probably even more Christian from the ground up. I do not know my fellow Americans to say sensible things like “why can’t we be more like Europe?”
Yeah your best chance at incrementalism was probably going to be less voter shaming (since the dems lost anyways) and getting out the vote for third parties. Not to get them elected, but to pressure and signal to the Democrats just how far the country is to the left of them and what motivates us to vote. If nothing else, a party gets federal funding at 5% of the national vote, which might have been achievable, again, if we were less focused on carrying democrats’ dead weight over the finish line.
Turns out, you tell people their third party vote is worthless, they rather stay home than vote for something that goes against their values. The absolute least we can do is get hard data on what their values are.
I’m a third party voter who didn’t go to the polls this time for the reasons you’re saying and I can’t see myself ever going again.
That’s okay, many of us that don’t believe in electoralism are instead getting organized in order to make change in our communities and to be ready when the two big parties fall. Try seeing if there’s a PSL or FRSO chapter in your area, or head out to a protest on Jan 20 and keep an eye out for orgs you might join. Orgs like this have given me a lot of hope for the future :)
Hopefully that’s cause you think there won’t be a vote that matters instead of just because you didn’t like how this one went.
Voting. Voting at all even if it’s for nothing but a blank box is better than staying at home and wasting even the protest.
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Or you play all your hands you have until you have a winning one. And don’t hold out for a lucky draw that you get enough people to agree to do that specific thing.
You aren’t incorrect about being a willful participant but you end up it either way, willingly or unwilling. At least you don’t end up waiting for an Ace that your opponent might be holding onto that you never get it.
You are just in the desire to be violent. To get out what you think you are owed to dish out on others. But it’s not actually a plan or productive cause what happens next? Hmm? Keep killing until it’s all fixed? Bonkers.
I don’t recognise that fixing anything is possible. I’m not hoping for a better future. I’m wanting to end everything.
I’m glad you’re going through a wake up call. Btw re Biden’s 2020 election, he would of never had that support had covid not happened and the BLM protests not happened. Both events fired up the base, and trumps covid response didn’t help things. If it was just another election, say 2004 but biden was on the ticket instead of Kerry, he would of lost.
The capitalists are consolidating power quickly and there’s no one in power to stop them. But there’s a lot more of us than there are of them, and look at how they’re throwing the book at Luigi with trumped up charges because he killed one person who just happened to be important to the ruling class. Nobody else who murders one person gets hit with charges to that level. We need more actions like that, we need to actually threaten them.
Unfortunately I think the biggest part of my ongoing wake up call is not the need for radical change, but that my disillusionment with the American people got even worse. I can only hope that a very large amount of Trump’s support is from ignorance, because there’s definitely a lot of enthusiastic informed support of him too.
I want to believe. I know there are more decent caring people than billionaire capitalists, but are there more decent caring people than the capitalists PLUS their boot lickers PLUS their useful idiots? And with the momentum going in the wrong direction?
In total it seems like we are much more likely to be rescued by a small platoon of extremely motivated and self-sacrificing Luigis, rather than our society at large actually wanting to fix itself.
I am so glad I left this bubble for a spell, because it’s fun to come back and see all the great new propaganda tactics being floated. Blue maga is hilariously internet! Love that for you.
Anywho, blaming the dems for trump winning, and ignoring all the people who voted for him is not coping, but pointing out that cities are liberal havens is?
I guess I’ll get back to focusing on my job instead of lemmy nonsense, because this place has always been completely unreasonably biased nonsense. My job is in a blue state whose taxes pay for the welfare of the rest of this shithole of a country, after all, so if I don’t do it, those trump supporters can’t buy his merch!