On 21 December 1991, Boris Yeltsin, President of Russia, sent a letter to NATO asking it to consider accepting Russia as a member of the alliance sometime in the future. In the letter to NATO, Yeltsin stated, “This would contribute to an atmosphere of mutual understanding and trust and would strengthen stability and cooperation on the European continent. We regard this relationship as serious and wish to develop this dialog on all fronts, both on the political and military levels. Today we raise the issue of Russia’s membership in NATO, however, we see this as a long-term political goal”.
Then, a bunch of stuff happened and both sides realized it was advantageous to not have Russia in NATO. Turns out it’s easier to win elections when there’s a cold war going on. You can read about it here.
Russia wasn’t exactly a bastion of stability at that era, especially as Shock Therapy economics absolutely destroyed the country.
Additionally, all these other countries that wanted into NATO vehemently hated Russia for years of occupation. They’d probably have been far more hesitant to join if Russia was in there.
Not saying there wasn’t malice on the side of the West, but at no point in NATO’s existence had inviting Russia into the fold made any strategic sense.
at no point in NATO’s existence had inviting Russia into the fold made any strategic sense.
Nato after 1991 also didn’t make strategic sense with a crumbled Russia.
What about all other countries not being part of a strong military alliance? Why do only the most prosperous and strong countries feel threatened?
Either dissolving Nato or inviting Russia would have created the opportunity to fully implement the idea of the UN and leave conflicts behind.
The problem is that we also have Capitalism. The UN doesn’t limit the power of billionaires. That’s fine within the West but the Russians must have objected to being treated like any weak economy. This should be the actual reason why Russia is not part of Nato.
Nato after 1991 also didn’t make strategic sense with a crumbled Russia.
Russia still had plenty of leadership and factions that held animosity towards the West.
Russia still had nukes.
You act like all was clear and settled after the USSR collapsed. It wasn’t. It was an era of uncertainty, especially with the aforementioned unstable Russia.
Why abandon the military alliance when you don’t know if the enemy is truly gone?
What about all other countries not being part of a strong military alliance? Why do only the most prosperous and strong countries feel threatened?
Are you a child? You understand the geopolitical situation for North America and Europe isn’t gonna be exactly the same as, say, Ecuador, right?.
Either dissolving Nato or inviting Russia would have created the opportunity to fully implement the idea of the UN and leave conflicts behind.
That is a laughable fantasy.
Russia didn’t turn to fascism under Putin because NATO exists. Russia also doesn’t invade its neighbors just because NATO exists.
Russia does this shit because the Russian gov is imperialist and lead by a dictator. Placing Russia in NATO would most certainly created a greater clusterfuck when they inevitably turned fascist and started invading its neighbors.
The problem is that we also have Capitalism. The UN doesn’t limit the power of billionaires. That’s fine within the West
The west is actively facing a striking rise in fascism not dissimilar to how it happened in Russia because of capitalism and billionaires.
but the Russians must have objected to being treated like any weak economy. This should be the actual reason why Russia is not part of Nato.
but the Russians must have objected to being treated like any weak economy. This should be the actual reason why Russia is not part of Nato.
Idk what you’re even trying to say here
Suggesting that they wouldn’t dismantle their power to the point that they get a regime change for independent politics like nationalizing the oil industry.
This is a common bullshit stance Russia apologists love to take.
Why is the burden of building trust on NATO when Russia had just gotten done occupying and oppressing half of Europe?
You understand nearly every single European country under the Iron Curtain wanted to diplomatically run to the West because of how fucking awful Russia was to them, right?
Ok rather than just slapping a reference and link to an entire article, why don’t you articulate the point you’re trying to get across than making me read through that entire thing to find your point?
Suggesting that they wouldn’t dismantle their power to the point that they get a regime change for independent politics like nationalizing the oil industry.
If you’re claiming Russia’s atrocities against Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, (and everywhere they’ve sent the Nazi mercs Wagner is all to keep power, you’re insane.
Right, once you have a global alliance that includes every nation there’s no reason for that alliance to exist. Or standing armies. Or nuclear submarines. You can’t ever let people get to the point where they start to question the need for mindless death instruments and the psychopaths who wield them.
Including Russia in the military alliance meant to safeguard others from Russian aggression seems wild. I know things were very different in 1991 and there were hopes that Russia would become like Western European countries, but it just feels like it would’ve made NATO pointless and not in the good sense of it not being needed anymore.
Well, off course. Its about trillions of dollars in weapons and arms selling to the allies. Peace is not that profitable. Who would be the bad guy now, if Russia had joined NATO?
Also in 1992 there was the Wolfowitz Doctrine, a U.S. defense policy document, which laid out America’s grand strategy post Soviet Union, describing how the U.S. will maintain global dominance. The CHINA, CHINA, CHINA (with Trumps voice), is now a “problem” to that Doctrine, and the U.S. is trying to control the damage.
I don’t say that Russia was the innocent victim, but this is how the game is played in that level. Were Russia in the place of the USA, they would have made the same move.
I’d imagine Russia would still act like the dickbags they always have but now they’d be inside the military alliance that was supposed to defend against Russian aggression.
Or they could be a totally normal and peaceful liberal democracy. But for me it’s jushard to imagine that being the likely outcome
I’d imagine Russia would still act like the dickbags
In your alternate reality Russia is still bad because you’re just Russophobe. The current proto-fascist Russian government is a direct consequence of western decisions, first by dismantling the Soviet Union and then by not allowing Russia to Europeify.
Russians wanted to join Europe, it simply wasn’t allowed, I don’t know what part of agency I’m removing from Russians. Funny how some countries are “democratically” allowed to join NATO (was there a referendum in Ukraine?), and some aren’t.
Russians are already part of Europe. Or like half of it is. And the members in EU and NATO always get to decide who to allow as members. Ukraine nor Russia is a member.
I was thinking agency in Eastern European people wanting to get away from under Soviet Union/Russia and join NATO and agency for Russians in some of their communist hardliners gave Soviet Union the final killing blow by destroying the New Union Treaty.
Nobody knows. It depends how much more profit would be for the Russian elite class to have a democracy (maybe they could had played along to joined EU). As you see USA is not particularly democratic now-days (she is in danger to become Russia).
On 21 December 1991, Boris Yeltsin, President of Russia, sent a letter to NATO asking it to consider accepting Russia as a member of the alliance sometime in the future. In the letter to NATO, Yeltsin stated, “This would contribute to an atmosphere of mutual understanding and trust and would strengthen stability and cooperation on the European continent. We regard this relationship as serious and wish to develop this dialog on all fronts, both on the political and military levels. Today we raise the issue of Russia’s membership in NATO, however, we see this as a long-term political goal”.
Then, a bunch of stuff happened and both sides realized it was advantageous to not have Russia in NATO. Turns out it’s easier to win elections when there’s a cold war going on. You can read about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–NATO_relations
Russia wasn’t exactly a bastion of stability at that era, especially as Shock Therapy economics absolutely destroyed the country.
Additionally, all these other countries that wanted into NATO vehemently hated Russia for years of occupation. They’d probably have been far more hesitant to join if Russia was in there.
Not saying there wasn’t malice on the side of the West, but at no point in NATO’s existence had inviting Russia into the fold made any strategic sense.
Nato after 1991 also didn’t make strategic sense with a crumbled Russia.
What about all other countries not being part of a strong military alliance? Why do only the most prosperous and strong countries feel threatened?
Either dissolving Nato or inviting Russia would have created the opportunity to fully implement the idea of the UN and leave conflicts behind.
The problem is that we also have Capitalism. The UN doesn’t limit the power of billionaires. That’s fine within the West but the Russians must have objected to being treated like any weak economy. This should be the actual reason why Russia is not part of Nato.
Russia still had plenty of leadership and factions that held animosity towards the West.
Russia still had nukes.
You act like all was clear and settled after the USSR collapsed. It wasn’t. It was an era of uncertainty, especially with the aforementioned unstable Russia.
Why abandon the military alliance when you don’t know if the enemy is truly gone?
Are you a child? You understand the geopolitical situation for North America and Europe isn’t gonna be exactly the same as, say, Ecuador, right?.
That is a laughable fantasy.
Russia didn’t turn to fascism under Putin because NATO exists. Russia also doesn’t invade its neighbors just because NATO exists.
Russia does this shit because the Russian gov is imperialist and lead by a dictator. Placing Russia in NATO would most certainly created a greater clusterfuck when they inevitably turned fascist and started invading its neighbors.
The west is actively facing a striking rise in fascism not dissimilar to how it happened in Russia because of capitalism and billionaires.
Idk what you’re even trying to say here
To build trust.
Russia is also the prize. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
Suggesting that they wouldn’t dismantle their power to the point that they get a regime change for independent politics like nationalizing the oil industry.
This is a common bullshit stance Russia apologists love to take.
Why is the burden of building trust on NATO when Russia had just gotten done occupying and oppressing half of Europe?
You understand nearly every single European country under the Iron Curtain wanted to diplomatically run to the West because of how fucking awful Russia was to them, right?
Ok rather than just slapping a reference and link to an entire article, why don’t you articulate the point you’re trying to get across than making me read through that entire thing to find your point?
If you’re claiming Russia’s atrocities against Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya, Syria, (and everywhere they’ve sent the Nazi mercs Wagner is all to keep power, you’re insane.
Right, once you have a global alliance that includes every nation there’s no reason for that alliance to exist. Or standing armies. Or nuclear submarines. You can’t ever let people get to the point where they start to question the need for mindless death instruments and the psychopaths who wield them.
Including Russia in the military alliance meant to safeguard others from Russian aggression seems wild. I know things were very different in 1991 and there were hopes that Russia would become like Western European countries, but it just feels like it would’ve made NATO pointless and not in the good sense of it not being needed anymore.
Well, off course. Its about trillions of dollars in weapons and arms selling to the allies. Peace is not that profitable. Who would be the bad guy now, if Russia had joined NATO?
Also in 1992 there was the Wolfowitz Doctrine, a U.S. defense policy document, which laid out America’s grand strategy post Soviet Union, describing how the U.S. will maintain global dominance. The CHINA, CHINA, CHINA (with Trumps voice), is now a “problem” to that Doctrine, and the U.S. is trying to control the damage.
I don’t say that Russia was the innocent victim, but this is how the game is played in that level. Were Russia in the place of the USA, they would have made the same move.
I’d imagine Russia would still act like the dickbags they always have but now they’d be inside the military alliance that was supposed to defend against Russian aggression.
Or they could be a totally normal and peaceful liberal democracy. But for me it’s jushard to imagine that being the likely outcome
In your alternate reality Russia is still bad because you’re just Russophobe. The current proto-fascist Russian government is a direct consequence of western decisions, first by dismantling the Soviet Union and then by not allowing Russia to Europeify.
I think it’s strange how you don’t allow Russians or other Eastern European people agency of their own.
Russians wanted to join Europe, it simply wasn’t allowed, I don’t know what part of agency I’m removing from Russians. Funny how some countries are “democratically” allowed to join NATO (was there a referendum in Ukraine?), and some aren’t.
Russians are already part of Europe. Or like half of it is. And the members in EU and NATO always get to decide who to allow as members. Ukraine nor Russia is a member.
I was thinking agency in Eastern European people wanting to get away from under Soviet Union/Russia and join NATO and agency for Russians in some of their communist hardliners gave Soviet Union the final killing blow by destroying the New Union Treaty.
Nobody knows. It depends how much more profit would be for the Russian elite class to have a democracy (maybe they could had played along to joined EU). As you see USA is not particularly democratic now-days (she is in danger to become Russia).