Nobody is born with a body organized around producing a third gamete size
You say that because you incorrectly categorize genetic variations as a failed attempt at one of two binary options. It’s circular reasoning. You’re looking for a binary to sort things into, so regardless of the underlying truth, you sort everything into it.
Like all smoking gun “binary” sex characteristics transphobes have honed in on over the years, we’re only talking about it because they arrived there from working backwards towards it. Just a few years ago all of these same talking points were “biological truth” regarding chromosomes (which you now openly concede are not reliable sex determinants)
A thorough investigation of gametes reveals that like everything else in biology that’s paired off, it’s bipolar in nature rather than binary (strongly gathered up into two categories but with outliers and exceptions).
Even ignoring gamete manifestation in all other species, which there is no reason to do other than to try and make a transphobic point, just among humans genetic variation occurs somewhat regularly. This is the basic principle that makes evolution possible, and it’s why other species have such insane gamete setups such that that gamete size cannot be used universally to determine sex.
Ah but I forget we’re still just talking humans. Evolutionary scientists reveal that the simple reason intermediate gamete sizes do not proliferate in our species is because they have historically been outcompeted. This fact could not be true if there were no bodies born with a third gamete type
An additional issue with this whole train of thought is the baseless presumption that normal biological variation precludes someone who was “supposed to be female” from producing the small gamete. It’s literally the meme we’re looking at in the OP: where the vast majority fits neatly into two categories, but if you were to try to work backwards from there and say everything must fit into those categories, you will have deprived yourself of even the most fundamental biological truths that describe our universe, and on a personal note, you will have deprived yourself of what makes biology beautiful.
I’m afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. There’s no “you openly concede”. This is literally how the field of biology defines sex. To quote:
In animals and plants, binary sex is universally defined by gamete type, even though sexes vary in how they are developmentally determined and phenotypically identified across taxa.
Yes, way back in our evolutionary history, sex wasn’t binary. We were also not multi cellular, but so what? We are now.
Listen buddy, you’ve obviously had a busy couple of days with your science themed transphobic tirade, so I understand it can be hard to remember all the things you yourself wrote. I know it might feel like a lifetime has passed, but this is actually you from only from two comments ago:
Sex is *determined* in humans by chromosomes (and is rather messy, as you note).
Look at you. You were so young. It feels like just yesterday you were openly conceding that chromosomal arrangement is not binary, but rather, “messy”
Then, given your ridiculous non sequitur dismissal of my point, I’m willing to accept that perhaps you simply misunderstood what I wrote, similar to how you misunderstand “literally the entire field of biology”.
Out of curiosity, do you assume nobody on this website is or is friends with a biologist?
Like all smoking gun “binary” sex characteristics transphobes have honed in on over the years, we’re only talking about it because they arrived there from working backwards towards it. Just a few years ago all of these same talking points were “biological truth” regarding chromosomes (which you now openly concede are not reliable sex determinants)
This is the context that I was referring to. I’m not “now” openly conceding anything. I haven’t “honed in” on anything over the years, whatever talking points other people used several years ago are irrelevant. You’re trying to lump me in with other people so that you can hate me. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, but I’ll say it at least once more. Chromosomal variation is messy, but it’s messy within the sex binary. I’m not “now conceding” that, I’ve never said anything else.
ridiculous non sequitur dismissal
It’s easy to throw words around. Your point is invalid because you’re talking about how sex came to be. That’s all fine and dandy, but irrelevant. What’s relevant to the discussion is the way it is today. If you want to talk about the development of sex, then the fact that there is such a strong pressure towards binary sex across so many different species should be telling. Other animals have completely different ways of sex determination and reproduction, and yet the sex binary exists virtually everywhere. Why is it so favored?
It’s convenient that you have a biologist friend. Ask them why real biologists are saying (to quote again, in case you missed it from my last message):
In animals and plants, binary sex is universally defined by gamete type, even though sexes vary in how they are developmentally determined and phenotypically identified across taxa.
Apologies for the confusion, I am not accusing you personally of participating in the previous wave of transphobic remarks
I am explaining to you that you are the result of their talking points. Quite literally. Similar to how widespread homophobia evolved into more focussed transphobia in recent times as homosexuality became obviously less acceptable. (All of the exact same talking points that used to apply to gay people now are used for trans people (they’re violent, they’re going after your kids, etc.))
So when I say “you now concede”, this is not to imply that your point of view has per se personally changed, but rather to highlight the absurdity of the history of your point (absolutist biological binaries) in the context from which it came.
What was once immutably “literally the field of biology” (XX & XY) was in the course of this modern conversation openly conceded, only for you to use the same incorrect logic to assert a new so called immutable truth. It is the latest in a long chain of “immutable truths” that have been disproven.
If you incorrectly believe you are not a part of that chain, it is because you don’t realize your “truth” was not delivered to you by scientists, but by transphobes. Biologists were confused and surprised when this new discourse took off.
Your point is invalid because you’re talking about how sex came to be.
bzzzzzt wrong! This is the type of stuff I’m talking about lol. You see “evolutionary biologists” (and I assume skip over half the other words I say? Baffling) and you assume we are discussing the distant past. Evolution hasn’t stopped. Literally the first sentence of my original post cements the reality that people are born today which defy your “UNBREAKABLE LAWS OF BIOLOGY”, yet are categorized incorrectly. By you. Because you have no idea what you’re talking about
Why is it so favored?
Literally go look at the meme again lol. Your perspective is totally backwards. You’re asking the wrong questions. It’s like saying the ocean only contains water. We show you the fish and you say “Irrelevant; fish are mostly made of water.”
It’s nonsensical. To its core. I hope one day you grow capable of turning back from the path you now walk.
p.s. here’s what real biologists are saying, btw. It’s the complete opposite of what you’re saying. Found that very interesting. Have fun cherry picking!
I encourage you to read this peer-reviewed follow-up from a biologist to that paper, which points out why it’s wrong (in the section “The Multilevel Sex Model”):
As that paper also points out, this is not a new definition. It references that definition from 1888. Biology has always used this definition of sex, and XX/XY being involved in the definition is simply a common misunderstanding, not the latest in a long chain of anything. Trying to paint this as new or transphobia is simply wrong.
You should ask your biologist friends why people today aren’t being born with a third gamete type. I’ll be honest, that’s just a bizarre claim. Where are you sourcing that from? I’ll explain why it’s wrong if you give a link. Also, as I’ve said before, none of these claims are mine. I’m simply stating what the scientific consensus is.
The meme is incorrectly trying to say “sex is only mostly a binary”. That is flat out wrong according to scientific consensus. Again, if you don’t like that, take it up with the experts. Publish a paper pointing out why these statements from a biologist are incorrect and become rich and famous (or at least famous):
Across anisogamous species, the existence of two—and only two—sexes has been a settled matter in modern biology
Across anisogamous taxa, males and females are defined by gametic dimorphism. Proposals to redefine sex in terms of karyotypes, secondary sexual characteristics, behavior, or other correlates are incoherent and invariably presuppose this foundation, because the categories “male” and “female” are intelligible only by reference to sperm and ova.
Most humiliating trash I’ve ever read, thank you! A ridiculous and indecipherable attempt at science. He randomly states nonsense circular reasoning without citation, and he also frequently cites random non-scientific opinion fluff articles from transphobes. How bizarre.
Ah, and wouldn’t you know it. The author is an explicitly transphobic right wing podcaster, who prattles on endlessly about the “social contagion” of “transgenderism” and cries like a little baby about how he has been “unfairly” excluded from the broader scientific community.
In conclusion - because you may need this spelled out for you - a single error ridden opinion piece by a discredited loser does not invalidate the overwhelming consensus of experts. By literal whining self proclamation his views are unrepresentative of the consensus of experts.
My intuition was obviously correct all along, but thank you for proving definitively that your views amount to nothing more than 100% science themed transphobic propaganda.
Where are you sourcing that from?
Literally the meta analysis I already linked. The consensus of experts is that gametes are bimodal. You should try listening to scientists if you care so much about science lol
I’m sorry, what? You’ve fundamentally misread that meta analysis if you think it posits a third gamete type. Just what?
Did you misread this bit? “Whereas some of these traits do typically have a bimodal distribution (some chromosomes, gametes)”. That’s not positing a third gamete type or saying that gametes aren’t binary. A binary distribution is a subset of the set of bimodal distributions. They use the term bimodal in reference to chromosomes, and it’s technically correct when applied to gametes, but does not imply thar gametes aren’t binary. The paper even acknowledges binary gametes elsewhere.
If you’re this wrong about a paper that you think supports your point, I don’t think it’s worth examining your take on other papers. Suffice it to say, for anyone else reading this, don’t take the other commenter’s word for it. The paper I linked is a good read.
That’s not true, there are definitely people both without any sex organs whose body “organization” has no concept of producing any gametes. There are people who are able to produce both gametes. Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALA does not make these people magically disappear. You cannot argue “well part of their body organization is invalid because of reasons”.
This is classic Dunning-Kruger shit where just because you learned a little about gametes you think you’re an expert, but there’s a huge world of exceptions out there.
I know you’re just here for the argument, and I’ve wasted enough time on this already. The “gamete size” simplification is Trumpist propaganda and not based in actual rigorous science.
You seem like you should know better. From the first link:
Instead, most characteristics ascribed to males and females fall along a spectrum with two peaks, one the average for females and the other the average for males. For instance, on average, males are taller than females and have more muscle mass, more red blood cells and a higher metabolism.
But almost nobody fits in the peak for all those measures for their sex, Lents says. “There’s plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. There are plenty of women who have higher metabolic rates than some men, even though the averages are different.
“If you define biological sex purely on the gametes, you’re going to ignore most of what actually matters to your daily life, including in your social life,” he says. “Reducing sex to a binary really doesn’t make a lot of sense for how we actually live.”
It confuses sex phenotypes with sex, which is a basic error. That’s not how sex is defined, it’s defined entirely by gamete size because no other definition makes sense.
Intersex is a confusing term, because you will either have a male or female DSD
Your other links are talking about variations within a sex. You also misunderstand how sex is determined vs how it is defined.
I’m done with this conversation now because you’re being willfully ignorant (as expected). One quote talking about characteristics is out of context for this discussion. There is a wealth of other context here that you are intentionally ignoring, specifically the many parts showing that scientists do not all agree with a reductionist definition only considering gametes. Your claim that no other definition makes sense is absolute bullshit in the scientific community and you should be ashamed for pretending it’s the only definition out there.
I’ll let someone else’s link (ironically trying to argue with me) do the talking:
In animals and plants, binary sex is universally defined by gamete type, even though sexes vary in how they are developmentally determined and phenotypically identified across taxa.
Real biologists saying real facts. Incidentally, I don’t really get the point of histrionics like “I’m done” or another commenter calling facts “boring”. I guess that maybe works for twitter clapbacks where vibes are more important than facts? When you’re ready though, the scientific truth will still be there for you.
Biology doesn’t give special consideration for humans. We’re simply animals like the rest of the animal kingdom. Within the animal kingdom there are absolutely species with more than two sexes including more than two gamete sizes.
You’re probably confusing sex with mating types. Sex is binary because there’s exactly two gamete sizes, eggs and sperm. Other species have gametes that are the same size, but those are called mating types and work very differently than sex.
Arctic foxes and fruit flies. And before responding, be sure to educate yourself on the difference between what constitutes size and “egg and sperm”. Those are entirely different concepts.
Look, I’ll be direct. You are ignorant. You should fix that. This will help:
“Male” and “female” in biology refer to gamete type (males make relatively small, motile gametes — sperm; females make relatively large, nutrient-rich gametes — eggs). The presence of different sperm sizes or extreme sperm variation in species like Drosophila is variation within the male gamete-producing sex, not a category that removes the fundamental distinction that males produce sperm and females produce eggs.
You’re kind of shooting the messenger here. It’s literally how sex is defined and used in biology, I’m just letting you know.
Not producing gametes doesn’t confuse things. Nobody is born with a body organized around producing a third gamete size, or no gamete size.
You say that because you incorrectly categorize genetic variations as a failed attempt at one of two binary options. It’s circular reasoning. You’re looking for a binary to sort things into, so regardless of the underlying truth, you sort everything into it.
Like all smoking gun “binary” sex characteristics transphobes have honed in on over the years, we’re only talking about it because they arrived there from working backwards towards it. Just a few years ago all of these same talking points were “biological truth” regarding chromosomes (which you now openly concede are not reliable sex determinants)
A thorough investigation of gametes reveals that like everything else in biology that’s paired off, it’s bipolar in nature rather than binary (strongly gathered up into two categories but with outliers and exceptions).
Even ignoring gamete manifestation in all other species, which there is no reason to do other than to try and make a transphobic point, just among humans genetic variation occurs somewhat regularly. This is the basic principle that makes evolution possible, and it’s why other species have such insane gamete setups such that that gamete size cannot be used universally to determine sex.
Ah but I forget we’re still just talking humans. Evolutionary scientists reveal that the simple reason intermediate gamete sizes do not proliferate in our species is because they have historically been outcompeted. This fact could not be true if there were no bodies born with a third gamete type
An additional issue with this whole train of thought is the baseless presumption that normal biological variation precludes someone who was “supposed to be female” from producing the small gamete. It’s literally the meme we’re looking at in the OP: where the vast majority fits neatly into two categories, but if you were to try to work backwards from there and say everything must fit into those categories, you will have deprived yourself of even the most fundamental biological truths that describe our universe, and on a personal note, you will have deprived yourself of what makes biology beautiful.
I’m afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. There’s no “you openly concede”. This is literally how the field of biology defines sex. To quote:
Yes, way back in our evolutionary history, sex wasn’t binary. We were also not multi cellular, but so what? We are now.
Listen buddy, you’ve obviously had a busy couple of days with your science themed transphobic tirade, so I understand it can be hard to remember all the things you yourself wrote. I know it might feel like a lifetime has passed, but this is actually you from only from two comments ago:
Look at you. You were so young. It feels like just yesterday you were openly conceding that chromosomal arrangement is not binary, but rather, “messy”
Then, given your ridiculous non sequitur dismissal of my point, I’m willing to accept that perhaps you simply misunderstood what I wrote, similar to how you misunderstand “literally the entire field of biology”.
Out of curiosity, do you assume nobody on this website is or is friends with a biologist?
This is the context that I was referring to. I’m not “now” openly conceding anything. I haven’t “honed in” on anything over the years, whatever talking points other people used several years ago are irrelevant. You’re trying to lump me in with other people so that you can hate me. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, but I’ll say it at least once more. Chromosomal variation is messy, but it’s messy within the sex binary. I’m not “now conceding” that, I’ve never said anything else.
It’s easy to throw words around. Your point is invalid because you’re talking about how sex came to be. That’s all fine and dandy, but irrelevant. What’s relevant to the discussion is the way it is today. If you want to talk about the development of sex, then the fact that there is such a strong pressure towards binary sex across so many different species should be telling. Other animals have completely different ways of sex determination and reproduction, and yet the sex binary exists virtually everywhere. Why is it so favored?
It’s convenient that you have a biologist friend. Ask them why real biologists are saying (to quote again, in case you missed it from my last message):
Apologies for the confusion, I am not accusing you personally of participating in the previous wave of transphobic remarks
I am explaining to you that you are the result of their talking points. Quite literally. Similar to how widespread homophobia evolved into more focussed transphobia in recent times as homosexuality became obviously less acceptable. (All of the exact same talking points that used to apply to gay people now are used for trans people (they’re violent, they’re going after your kids, etc.))
So when I say “you now concede”, this is not to imply that your point of view has per se personally changed, but rather to highlight the absurdity of the history of your point (absolutist biological binaries) in the context from which it came.
What was once immutably “literally the field of biology” (XX & XY) was in the course of this modern conversation openly conceded, only for you to use the same incorrect logic to assert a new so called immutable truth. It is the latest in a long chain of “immutable truths” that have been disproven.
If you incorrectly believe you are not a part of that chain, it is because you don’t realize your “truth” was not delivered to you by scientists, but by transphobes. Biologists were confused and surprised when this new discourse took off.
bzzzzzt wrong! This is the type of stuff I’m talking about lol. You see “evolutionary biologists” (and I assume skip over half the other words I say? Baffling) and you assume we are discussing the distant past. Evolution hasn’t stopped. Literally the first sentence of my original post cements the reality that people are born today which defy your “UNBREAKABLE LAWS OF BIOLOGY”, yet are categorized incorrectly. By you. Because you have no idea what you’re talking about
Literally go look at the meme again lol. Your perspective is totally backwards. You’re asking the wrong questions. It’s like saying the ocean only contains water. We show you the fish and you say “Irrelevant; fish are mostly made of water.”
It’s nonsensical. To its core. I hope one day you grow capable of turning back from the path you now walk.
p.s. here’s what real biologists are saying, btw. It’s the complete opposite of what you’re saying. Found that very interesting. Have fun cherry picking!
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37156506/
I encourage you to read this peer-reviewed follow-up from a biologist to that paper, which points out why it’s wrong (in the section “The Multilevel Sex Model”):
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-025-03348-3
As that paper also points out, this is not a new definition. It references that definition from 1888. Biology has always used this definition of sex, and XX/XY being involved in the definition is simply a common misunderstanding, not the latest in a long chain of anything. Trying to paint this as new or transphobia is simply wrong.
You should ask your biologist friends why people today aren’t being born with a third gamete type. I’ll be honest, that’s just a bizarre claim. Where are you sourcing that from? I’ll explain why it’s wrong if you give a link. Also, as I’ve said before, none of these claims are mine. I’m simply stating what the scientific consensus is.
The meme is incorrectly trying to say “sex is only mostly a binary”. That is flat out wrong according to scientific consensus. Again, if you don’t like that, take it up with the experts. Publish a paper pointing out why these statements from a biologist are incorrect and become rich and famous (or at least famous):
Most humiliating trash I’ve ever read, thank you! A ridiculous and indecipherable attempt at science. He randomly states nonsense circular reasoning without citation, and he also frequently cites random non-scientific opinion fluff articles from transphobes. How bizarre.
Ah, and wouldn’t you know it. The author is an explicitly transphobic right wing podcaster, who prattles on endlessly about the “social contagion” of “transgenderism” and cries like a little baby about how he has been “unfairly” excluded from the broader scientific community.
In conclusion - because you may need this spelled out for you - a single error ridden opinion piece by a discredited loser does not invalidate the overwhelming consensus of experts. By literal whining self proclamation his views are unrepresentative of the consensus of experts.
My intuition was obviously correct all along, but thank you for proving definitively that your views amount to nothing more than 100% science themed transphobic propaganda.
Literally the meta analysis I already linked. The consensus of experts is that gametes are bimodal. You should try listening to scientists if you care so much about science lol
I’m sorry, what? You’ve fundamentally misread that meta analysis if you think it posits a third gamete type. Just what?
Did you misread this bit? “Whereas some of these traits do typically have a bimodal distribution (some chromosomes, gametes)”. That’s not positing a third gamete type or saying that gametes aren’t binary. A binary distribution is a subset of the set of bimodal distributions. They use the term bimodal in reference to chromosomes, and it’s technically correct when applied to gametes, but does not imply thar gametes aren’t binary. The paper even acknowledges binary gametes elsewhere.
If you’re this wrong about a paper that you think supports your point, I don’t think it’s worth examining your take on other papers. Suffice it to say, for anyone else reading this, don’t take the other commenter’s word for it. The paper I linked is a good read.
That’s not true, there are definitely people both without any sex organs whose body “organization” has no concept of producing any gametes. There are people who are able to produce both gametes. Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALA does not make these people magically disappear. You cannot argue “well part of their body organization is invalid because of reasons”.
This is classic Dunning-Kruger shit where just because you learned a little about gametes you think you’re an expert, but there’s a huge world of exceptions out there.
What exactly do you mean by “has no concept”? I don’t think you quite understand what you’re talking about.
I know you’re just here for the argument, and I’ve wasted enough time on this already. The “gamete size” simplification is Trumpist propaganda and not based in actual rigorous science.
Actual biologists agree that bodies without sex organs don’t fit into the binary definition
Hormone expression (in addition to gamete size) is also a critical factor that scientists use to define sex
Determining “organization” in cases of “physical anomaly” via chromosomes is unreliable
1.3% of people are born intersex, and “intersex” represents an entire continuum
Educate yourself.
You seem like you should know better. From the first link:
It confuses sex phenotypes with sex, which is a basic error. That’s not how sex is defined, it’s defined entirely by gamete size because no other definition makes sense.
Intersex is a confusing term, because you will either have a male or female DSD
Your other links are talking about variations within a sex. You also misunderstand how sex is determined vs how it is defined.
I’m done with this conversation now because you’re being willfully ignorant (as expected). One quote talking about characteristics is out of context for this discussion. There is a wealth of other context here that you are intentionally ignoring, specifically the many parts showing that scientists do not all agree with a reductionist definition only considering gametes. Your claim that no other definition makes sense is absolute bullshit in the scientific community and you should be ashamed for pretending it’s the only definition out there.
I’ll let someone else’s link (ironically trying to argue with me) do the talking:
Real biologists saying real facts. Incidentally, I don’t really get the point of histrionics like “I’m done” or another commenter calling facts “boring”. I guess that maybe works for twitter clapbacks where vibes are more important than facts? When you’re ready though, the scientific truth will still be there for you.
Biology doesn’t give special consideration for humans. We’re simply animals like the rest of the animal kingdom. Within the animal kingdom there are absolutely species with more than two sexes including more than two gamete sizes.
You’re probably confusing sex with mating types. Sex is binary because there’s exactly two gamete sizes, eggs and sperm. Other species have gametes that are the same size, but those are called mating types and work very differently than sex.
Nope. There are animals with more than two gamete sizes. Egg and sperm are not sizes.
What animals are those?
Arctic foxes and fruit flies. And before responding, be sure to educate yourself on the difference between what constitutes size and “egg and sperm”. Those are entirely different concepts.
You’re confusing sex and Polymorphism. Those aren’t different sexes
You’re confusing size and type. You can have two types with more than two sizes of a thing.
Look, I’ll be direct. You are ignorant. You should fix that. This will help: