Kinda reminds me of boot camp, using psychological attacks to break down men’s will and have him disregulated and complient
it makes sense they want robots, who wont question where and what to shoot.
pickup artists seemed to heavily reinforce the manosphere alot prior to the likes of tate, and peterson. and Gymbros fall for it as well. especially the ones that are make jokes about people who are not going to gyms, or they eat certain foods that the gymbro doesnt like, eventhough they arnt the one eating. they always make a snide or passive aggressive comment.(its none of your business)
Contrapoints has a really great video about this.
so many comments claiming this post blames or makes fun of men and incels that i went back and reread the whole thing… what the fuck are the lot of you even responding to‽ there’s nothing like that in the post, and on the contrary it says men are victimized by this. Jesus, some of you are really willing to take anything as a slight. beats self reflection i guess.
Yeah a good few people are telling on themselves by feeling called out by this.
Lemmy becomes completely irrational whenever the words “male loneliness epidemic” appear, once you read that around here (and it shows up in the OP) you can skip the comments as nothing good will come out of the thread.
I kinda get it though
What is “manosphere”?
basically toxic and hyper masculinity encapsulated into a community, a cult of sorts.
It’s a sphere made out of naked men. It’s a dangerous weapon because of its incredible sexiness.
HOT.
An insulating community of conservative influencers and their fans, focusing on giving lost males “meaning” by feeding their ego.
I think they mean toxic masculinity
this post brings up some good points, but I want to be clear that turning men into women hating incels who will die alone is the GOAL of all this rhetoric. it doesn’t have to be that way.
if your reaction to this post is “women bad” you should take a step back and realize they’ve already gotten you to take the first step down the pipeline.
be 5’ 7"
not attractive to most women (aww)
every airplane seat feels like first class
live longer on average (aww)
workout once a week and look buff
no car is too small
sleep like a king in beds of any size
women generally trust you more easily cos your presence is non-threatening
You know it’s not that bad of a trade. Y’all sixfooters have fun with the girls.
I’m gay and everyone is the same height to me once you get 'em horizontal
I’m not quite 5’8, and I was in the Marines, where obviously size was made to be something, especially in the infantry, but I always used to just tell dudes that I’m harder to shoot, and in the unlikely event they get me before you, I’m easier to carry to safety. Fucking win-win as far as I’m concerned.
And with those days long behind me, and married with a short wife and hort kids of my own, I’m the biggest thing in the world to them. So just find an equally short person to spend your life with. Or don’t, nothing matter!
It’s true. Women trust me partially because…wtf am I going to do to them? Sit on her head? Bite her ankles? So, I’m one of the only two being driven by my co-worker nowadays. Bonus points for having given up on relationships, because even if I was in the mood for those, I don’t have time for no personal life.
Eh, I agree and disagree with the image text. There are similarities, yes, but I wouldn’t view it quite as closely connected as the post implies. Main reason being that there’s a difference between using verbal abuse to control someone’s actions – like what it implies an abusive boyfriend would do to control his gf – and using generally third party reference points to construct an admittedly grim world view for a broad demographic group. The manosphere approach is closer, I’d say, to the marketing done by the women’s beauty industry in this regard.
Ie. there are certain trends / norms that women tend to cycle through, and certain beauty standards that people generally seem to expect from women (without digging in to that!). The beauty industry leverages that and puts out products re-enforcing those norms / helping ppl align to those norms. There are lots of people that find alternative body types attractive, and/or that have more realistic expectations. But if you’re a woman who’s obsessed with beauty trends, it can become an unhealthy obsession leading to potential issues like anorexia.
In that it’s toxic when taken to an extreme, and in that its fundamentals are based in “reality”, the beauty industry’s similar to manosphere rhetoric. The manosphere’s “short guys get no girls” mentality is backed by many short guys experiences with dating (especially online, where they’re pre-filtered!); similarly, a fat girl with lopsided facial features will have difficulty, making the beauty industries products/message more enticing/convincing. They both leverage the generally negative real world experiences of their target audiences to ‘ground’ their message. Both movements also have equatable super stars – “Supermodels”/OnlyFans girls/Twitch Streamers/Whatever who are deemed the most beautiful women, and “Tech bros” who are fathering armies of children and touting right wing eugenics-like ideals.
Mostly pointing this alternative comparison out, because I think there’s a bit of grey on the manosphere stuff. An obsession with beauty standards/industry stuff is unhealthy, but in moderation its ok/beneficial; an obsession with “men’s rights”/“men’s issues” is unhealthy, but in moderation it’s likely a good thing. More guys being more conscious about their health, and getting more exercise, isn’t a bad thing after all – and that’s one of the themes in that manosphere clusterfuck.
This is quite an insightful comment actually, thanks.
“OMG these people are incel losers they have no worth and deserve to die!”
“Incel losers” commits a horrific crime because they were treated like they have no worth and deserve to die
“OMG can you believe it? We should bully them harder, that will fix things!”
Maybe the fucking problem is people treating these poor people so horribly. We want to PREVENT such things happening which means addressing the root of the problem and trying to catch people who could fall into those destructive manoaphere circles BEFORE they get the idea to commit mass murder. I’m PRETTY positive the solution isn’t to bully them more.
“Incel losers” commits a horrific crime because they were treated like they have no worth and deserve to die
What makes you think that was why a particular crime was committed? There are lots and lots of people who get bullied and are treated like shit and they don’t act out in some horrible, violent way.
I think it’s these communities that they’re in that encourage that kind of behavior. We need better support structures for our society so that people who need community can find something healthy.
I thought we agreed to treat every life as worthless, unless they have a couple of million dollars on them, regardless of gender or race?
A part that complicates things is that incels, contrary to what the name implies, choose to be incels. Also, working with incels specifically could end up giving a perverse incentive (or whatever it’s called when an effort to reduce something instead becomes an incentive to increase it) to be an incel to get help.
Well, you choose whether or not to identify as an incel. Which is what you mean, I assume.
Yeah, inceldom is a mindset, choosing to be bitter about their state of affairs and lash out at others for not wanting them. I don’t frequent their areas, but some of them blame various ratios of their facial positioning when their face is fine, it’s just their attitude that is shitty.
I guess it could be argued how much one can change their personality to be less off-putting, but I’ve known some real ugly dudes that have had fine dating lives.
Sure, but what you’re describing here is more than just an attitude. It’s a cult.
thats a volcel, no?
I realize you’re probably just making a joke but the reality is that there are few people so ugly that no one would have sex with them. Even if you keep your standards high, I’m sure there’s many cases of someone whose own mother would cry at the sight of that managed attract a model who is just into that.
But the attitude is very off-putting, more so than whatever physical characteristics they think disqualifies them from love or sex (and a good number of them aren’t even unattractive but just have no self-esteem and hate themselves so much they either can’t believe someone else would like them or that someone who does must have big problems of their own or is lying to use them).
Even the niceguy attitude is offputting, and the incel attitude is pretty much that but replace the sadness with anger and the depression with rage, and add a bunch of BS masquerading as the science of attraction that proves they aren’t attractive and ignores that it’s subjective and that there’s this weird “so ugly it’s cute” category that some/many people seem to have (though it usually applies to animals rather than people).
This is the Just World Fallacy. Saying “You can’t get laid because you have a bad attitude” isn’t any different from saying “The reason why you’re homeless is because of your bad attitude.”
Okay. Does that help at all? Abso-fucking-lutely not.
I disagree that it’s unhelpful. I’ll agree that it’s not an easy thing like “just smile more, you’ll get laid!” But step 1 for any incel to actually get laid would be to stop being a fucking incel and recognize that no one owes them sex, affection, or even a moment of their time to hear them out or explain why they won’t.
If you choose to wallow in something, whether it be inceldom or depression, you’re going to find it very difficult or impossible to come out of that.
Incels sound like a toxic cult, and I’m not sure how much you can blame people for getting indoctrinated into a cult.
Depression is a disease which is treated with medication and therapy, so I don’t see that as similar at all.
What I find interesting is that most people try to counter this with “Just do this, and then maybe you’ll get laid”, instead of pointing out how self-centered the entire concept is in the first place.
But step 1 for any incel to actually get laid would be to stop being a fucking incel and recognize that no one owes them sex, affection, or even a moment of their time to hear them out or explain why they won’t.
No, that is not step 1 for actually getting laid, because there is no step 1 for that. Some people are doomed to be alone and miserable, and for some of them, that’s never going to change. That’s just how it is. I wish we’d built a better society which actually takes care of people, but that isn’t the one we live in. I just do my best to try to make things better.
What we really need is legalized sex work, but there’d have to be protections for the workers so they wouldn’t have to worry about being abused by their clientele. Legalized sex work with strong sex workers’ unions would be ideal.
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Podcast episode #120 (Invicil) from Reply All should be required listening in this day and age.
Invicil: How a shy, queer Canadian woman accidentally invented one of the internet’s most toxic male communities.
Man, Reply All was so good… It really bummed me out when I heard that PJ is a major bully/asshole.
Was that ever substantiated? I saw some comments saying that it was just a rumor, I didn’t really look to hard into it because the podcast was over by then.
Study on men who are chronically single showed the common denominator: having extremely low confidence. Now that I think about it, this post corroborates the target profile of negging by abusers-- victims who have low self-esteem.
There are, for the lack of a better word, not so good looking men or short men having relationships, in one form or another, with ridiculously good looking women because these men have confidence without being too bragadacious. Of course, there are shallow women who go for looks alone (same as men), but there are just as many kind-hearted and less shallow women who prefer men with personality over looks and vice versa.
Low confidence and self-critical thoughts are what impedes chronically single men. Sometimes, it is indeed on the state of mind. And this vulnerability of lonely men is exploited by manosphere to create incels. I don’t have a solution to address the problem but this is a general observation.
yea, incelism is all about blaming women for all thier inadquecies, the reason they dont have a job, or they not tall, or they dont have large dong. or they are not hot. they could be looking the wrong places, if a psychopath can have a SO, so can “incels”
This is top tier gaslighting. I dont know why people bend over backwards to blame anyone but women for the 6ft meme. Manosphere reacted to a real thing and grifted off it growing it into political campaigning but is was real sentiment experienced by men. I’m not short and I see it happen all the time. Women are open about it.
Before the 6ft meme the redpill meme for guys was to laugh at tall guys and call them skeles until height became a desirable trait and it reversed with short dudes getting laughed at for being manlets.
It used to be niche and restricted to internet cesspits but YouTube and tiktok really brought the most toxic parts of the redpill, pua and lookism into the mainstream. It started ironic as a joke mocking lookism but kids got sucked in hard and lines blurred.
I’m still pissed these people have managed to infect so much of the male fitness community.
I dont know why people bend over backwards to blame anyone but women for the 6ft meme.
Your really going to blame all women for that? I know tons of women who haven’t even really given it a passing thought.
Even if it were a common sentiment, <15% of men are 6ft anyway so most will have to settle.
They never said the word all
No but it wouldn’t have hurt to use the word “some”.
They also never specified a woman or group of women either.
Which is why you shouldn’t assume they meant all women.
Well then their comment is pointless. There are shitty people everywhere. Men are rapists.
#notallmen
Why shouldn’t he ??? women came out in droves during men’s mental health awareness day & to demonize it & no serious pushback was given.
I don’t know where you hang out, but I didn’t see that at all, that’s really unfortunate you experienced that. Where did you see people demonizing it? I’d like to avoid those places.
Men’s mental health is just as important as anyone else’s. Maybe even more so right now, as a group, many seem to be in crisis.
Corpos have targeted women’s insecurities for over a century to sell their ideas/products. They’ve gotten very good in recent decades capitlizing on this for men. It’s culture war bullshit so they can sell you fascism.
Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, mainstream news. The list goes on
Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, mainstream news.
So from social media, which amplifies fringe and minority opinions as if it is a reflection of real life.
Callin it as Fringe minority opinions is a common deflection tactic. They are still people saying things.
Do you realise how social media algorithms work?
I mean come on this is like saying “there’s toxicity in my league of legends chat!”. that’s the whole point, especially with musk at the top.
if it’s affecting you this much where you are developing these incel thought patterns you should get off the app.
First stop being a sex-obsessed creep. Imagine saying you don’t get to have opinions because you didn’t have sex.
You’re part of the problem. Invalidation is also a common demonization tactic.
where did I say that? I’m not trying to invalidate anything I’m just saying that those apps are well known echo chamber for those thought patterns. little weird to just bring up having sex like that, it’s kinda exactly what I’m talking about.
seriously though. if you have these thought patterns you should take one hell of a look in the mirror. I almost went down that path as a teen and it is ugly and harmful. there’s still time to change.
women aren’t out to get you. these things talked about online like height and looks mean nothing in the real world. that’s not an exaggeration, it really is more about your personality, so I suggest you try to understand why yours seems unlikable.
this isn’t a personal dig, as I said I almost went down that same path in highschool and I’m very glad I got out of it while I could.
You’ve literally made that up. The comment you responded to didn’t say that.
It’s your lie, tell it how you want I guess… Why are you punishing yourself by believing in such terrible ‘opinions’ from others? Especially online, you literally can’t verify who’s human anymore. You could be getting upset with someone purposely creating rage bait. Opinions are like assholes mate. Bullies only bully to pull a reaction. They’re getting it with you, why let them do this to you?
I’ve never met a woman who only focused on men’s looks. Never. Looks for many women come after personality. Confidence sans arrogance wins that race mostly.
You appear not to have peace inside, just making shit up…you don’t have to live life with such dark outlook. In fact, you may be creating a self fulfilling prophecy in doing shit like this.
Manosphere being a toxic shitshow of harmful beliefs and self-sabotag is nothing new.
But in 1 way, it is very different to an abusive boyfriend. The abusive bf doesn’t necessarily start off being abusive or not as obviously so. The bf adapts to you and slowly undermines your confidence. The manosphere has it in their advertising material. The people fall for the manosphere are not slowly manipulated and abused by the manosphere. The manosphere is the new abusive boyfriend after the breakup with the last abuser. When the abuse already has been normalised and kinda wanted because at least it is “familiar”.
So what is the first “abusive boyfriend”?
So what is the first “abusive boyfriend”?
For me it was high school. Constantly being treated like shit by my peers for being weird and quiet really fucked me up. Fortunately things got better in college and I didn’t fall into the manosphere crap but I very easily could have had I not found people to give me a break and help me learn to act more “normal” without being abusive towards me.
From what I could witness, most likely the “first abuser” is most likely a close family member, either the (step-)father or some uncle or grandfather - people who themselves believe in such values they call “traditional”.
Yeah, but also (step-)mother or some aunt or grandmother, maybe even girlfriend. Not only men are pushing these “traditional” values.
maybe in a ultra conservative household. but more than not its the man of the house that influences the male children more.
In my life, I made a very different experience.
And I believe:
Sexist beliefs, traditions and norms are not only held up by men and ultra conservative women. We all do it together and as long as we act that we don’t do it as a collective, we will continue to fail young man and women and turn more people into toxic sexist idiots.
This is true, but if even just one family member protected them from this harmful rhetoric, it saves hope for the kid.
Father’s need to support their sons, show empathy, and actually engage with their children in a meaningful way. Hug your fucking kids!
Elephant Graveyard said it first.
so is it just impossible for a woman to do something wrong or?
Yup, that’s why tate sold the worst dating advice in the world while being a sex trafficker, ensuring repeat business.
The solution to many problems in our Society is to make fraud laws stronger and prosecute them more fully
and “get rick quick” schemes with extremely bad trading advice, which require high memberships.
I think there’s more to the manosphere than this.
Maybe, but I don’t think that’s relevant to this post.
